Passion, Curiosity, And The Hook

Cheyenne 0:00

Honestly, I think that passion drives a lot. So as soon as I, you know, could figure this out and I learned about it, I was just very passionate. I'm like, how can I get better? What can I do?

Meet Cheyenne And The Focus

Keith 0:18

Welcome to another episode of Sell Me This Podcast. Today I am so excited to have with us Cheyenne Friendly, one of the partners at Skymark Advisory Group, a partner in Specialized ServiceNow Advisory. In our conversation today, we cover everything from how to select a successful ITSM platform, the importance of governance when you're rolling out some of these big technologies, and the journey that Cheyenne took as she was building her own career. I hope you enjoy. Welcome to another episode of Sell Me This Podcast. Today I'm incredibly excited to have with me Cheyenne, or as we were just saying in the pre-show, the Cheyenne. Cheyenne, you do probably do a much better introduction of yourself than I do. But uh for people that don't know who you are, can you give a little bit of an intro and say hi to everyone?

Cheyenne 1:00

Yeah, absolutely. First off, thank you so much for having me here. Uh, it's so nice to see you. Uh, so I am Cheyenne. Um, I am a partner at Skymark Advisory Group here in Calgary, which is a ServiceNow partner. Um, I've been in this space for a very, very long time, probably as long as I've known you. Um, so yeah, that's me. That's that's who I am.

Keith 1:23

Yeah. I I remember, and so I feel like you might win the record of the person that I might have actually known the longest that's been on the show so far. Cause I was trying to go back and like so it would have been Enerplus days.

Cheyenne 1:35

Yes, yeah.

Keith 1:36

And and you were on what I don't even know if you were on the ServiceNow team yet.

Cheyenne 1:39

We were it would have been, yeah, it was it would have been back in 2011. So just as we were starting to adopt ServiceNow, one of the I think first companies in Calgary, actually.

From Mailroom To ITSM

Keith 1:52

Yeah, I feel like Ener Ener Plus was a pioneer on a whole bunch of things. And I just I remember what a great team it was there. Yes. And and I I wasn't planning on diving right into the ServiceNow conversation, but we we've opened the door on it already. What like what drew you towards that line of work within Ener Plus? And and was it kind of something that you'd um aspired towards, or did you just kind of find yourself falling into the ITSM side of things?

Cheyenne 2:15

Yeah, that's a really good question. Something I get I get asked a lot because the way that I ended up in IT is not kind of a path that you would think. So when I was at uh Ener Plus, I was in the mail room. So I was like making connections with everybody within the organization, right? And I was offered a role within IT as an administrator. And I think it was like no less than two weeks later. They're like, we are sending you to New York. We are adopting this new technology called ServiceNow. So we're gonna send you. And uh that was my introduction to IT, actually. I mean, minus the the the days when I was making my own web pages and like HTML and CF.

Keith 2:54

With the scrolling mark year on the side.

Cheyenne 2:56

Yes, I had the best pages, I will be honest. But um, yeah, that's kind of how I landed there. And it was something that that, and I'm finding this very common in the Service Now space is it's not something that you actually go into because there's not courses or things like that available in post-secondary, right? So it's something that you just kind of end up in, and I fell in love with it. So I was like, I am, you know, I can do this. This is cool, this is really awesome. And I just totally nerded out, taught myself how to do JavaScript, taught myself coding, everything, and how to do things right.

Keith 3:29

So and just do dove in with both feet and kind of figured it out.

Cheyenne 3:33

Yeah, yeah.

Keith 3:33

Cause because at that time too, and I I don't want to say it was like a new technology, but but it wasn't as prevalent as it is today.

Cheyenne 3:41

Yes, there's been some growth for sure. Just a little bit, yeah. I mean, back then I it was, you know, a lot of organization used it within their ITSM. So incident problem, change, release, all of that. And then they grew and they grew and they grew. And I'd say like 2017 was probably the year where overnight I feel like it just accelerated within the ecosystem.

Keith 4:06

I I love it. And so, so what was that journey like for you then? So you were you were at NR Plus, um, you were in the mailroom, you um take this leap into IT. Um, how do you find yourself, you know, fast forward uh you know a few years, um, the the partner of your own firm? Um, I'm sure there's a couple different steps in between, but what was that journey like for you?

Cheyenne 4:27

Yeah, I've I've seen it all, right? Like I was on the client side, um, and then I decided, you know, I need a challenge and I'd like to see what other organizations are doing. So I did join a partner that was back in 2020, those days.

Keith 4:42

It seems like a life like I feel like pre-COVID, it seems like a different universe altogether, but totally, yes.

Cheyenne 4:47

And I'm just starting out this new role, and uh, three months later, this hits us, right? And so, you know, you're trying to connect with new people, meet new people, and get in front of clients. And everyone was trying to just figure out how to work from home because even technology working from home wasn't that big at the time, too. So yeah, um, got got involved with a few different clients, uh, mainly locally here in Western Canada. And then it just started to expand and expand. So we we focused on what's called technology workflow in ServiceNow. So really focusing on CMDB, what is common services data model? It was very new back then. Uh, IT asset management, both software and hardware, which I also had experience with because I was kind of thrown all those things in an administrator role. And so to kind of grasp onto a lot of those concepts was was easier, I would say. But it's definitely been a journey.

What ServiceNow Really Is

Keith 5:44

Um, and I there's some things that I want to jump into over, you know, on that career path side of things, but I have a feeling we're gonna be talking about ITSM's lots around ServiceNow. We'll probably use the maybe have the most acronyms per episode. Yes. Um that we'll check off here. Um, but for our listeners that are they're a little bit less technical or maybe don't have that kind of service operations background. Um, can you give us like what is ServiceNow?

Cheyenne 6:09

Yeah, so that's a really good question. Um, and sometimes I I think about it because I talk to my kids and they're like, what is ServiceNow? Right. And they know that I I work with this system. So I always kind of explain it as it's it's a it's a centralized platform where you can run a ton of different processes on it. And it's all connected because it's one architecture, one data model, right? And when I when I talk about that with my children, it's like, okay, you have an experience, you're going to a website, you need to order something. Okay, what happens in the back end? Who needs to take care of certain tasks to do that so that you get what you want? Um, you know, whether it's a t-shirt or candy from a store, how is that happening? And, you know, do they have stock and and things like that? So just making sure that everything is flowing nicely in the back end so that that user experience is is a lot nicer.

Keith 7:02

And and I love how you describe that because I think that a lot of the people that grew up with ServiceNow think of it as this you know ticket management system, and and it's so much more than that. And I think the platform, the organization, etc., has evolved past there. And I, you know, I remember um you know, probably 10 years ago, I worked with one of the airlines here in I don't want to say in town, but in Canada, we'll say just to anonymize it a tiny bit. Yes, you know, and and they were a big ServiceNow partner and and their ServiceNow biggest users were outside of IT.

Cheyenne 7:29

Yes, yes.

Keith 7:30

Um, and I I don't know if that's the same now, but is that one of the big misconceptions you have when you're having some of those platform conversations that it's this IT tool rather than this kind of maybe process orchestrator, like you're calling it?

Cheyenne 7:42

Yeah, absolutely. I would say especially because you know, earlier in the days, that is what ServiceNow was kind of known for, right? Is their IT service management. And then discovery came around and oh, you can discover your network and you know, we can understand the relationships between your services and your underlying infrastructure. But not only that, it's grown so much that you're starting to see, oh, IT is very efficient with what they're doing. Can we use this in finance? Can we use this from an HR perspective? Um, can we use this to manage our hardware assets, our software assets, our procurement processes, anything, right? And so there also is the capability within the application to actually build your own apps within their app studio, which is really cool, especially for you know developers or citizen developers, even with their their low-code, no code solutions that they do have. So uh yeah, I mean, anytime somebody asks me what ServiceNow can do, I'm like, what can't it do? Honestly, um, because it is integrating with other systems as well and just making lives a lot easier.

Keith 8:49

Yeah. And and so I feel like that order and magnitude of kind of what can't it do versus what can it do creates some challenges at the same time because um when you can do whatever you want, obviously there is a bunch of chaos that that can ensue. Um, and and also creativity almost becomes the bottleneck. And so is that most of the work you're doing now rather than kind of how are we like managing process XYZ versus kind of what does that ecosystem and environment look like? Like how do you work with your customers around the way to get value out of that platform?

Value, Outcomes, And KPIs

Cheyenne 9:22

Yeah, that's such a great question because it all comes down to the value, the outcomes and the impact that that it's it's delivering, right? Because you want a solution that's going to provide that for you, not just solutions that are implemented and you know, you're creating customization or configuration that down the road is leading to technical debt, right? So one of the things that is really, really important, and I will die on this hill, so to speak, um, is the governance side of things, right? You have to ensure that you have the right governance framework in place in order to support the processes, whatever they are, um, in order to get the value out of it and really understanding what are the goals that you're looking to achieve. You know, you're spending X amount of time on, you know, this specific process. Well, what if we could reduce that by five minutes per person? Okay, now we're talking potentially thousands of dollars uh within an organization. And so just making sure that you're tracking those KPIs, um, you're you're measuring them over time, and you have people that are responsible for that going forward.

Keith 10:25

And so governance is such a big conversation. And I think governance gets a really bad rap sometimes because people think of governance as something that maybe slows things down. It's the check and the balance of, you know, what I want to move quickly, I want to do the Facebook move fast and break things. Um why is governance so important?

Cheyenne 10:43

Yeah, I would say basically to summarize it, it's ensuring that we have the right people that understand the roles, the responsibilities, not necessarily that you have to have all of these processes that, you know, check step one, step two, step three, step four, right? We want to ensure that the process is easier because with with a harder process, it's gonna be, you know, harder to manage. So just finding out what's working best for those domain experts in the areas, uh, and just ensuring that you have somebody that at the end of the day the day is ultimately responsible for ensuring that, you know, those measurements are in place and and we're actually tracking the value over time.

Keith 11:25

That makes sense. Are are people good at setting that up?

Cheyenne 11:29

I would say it depends on the organization, right? There you could have a smaller organization organization where, you know, they maybe have a couple of people that are looking after many different processes internally. Um, you could have organizations where specific departments aren't talking together. And one of the things I really like about ServiceNow is because it is one platform, these people have to talk together, talk together, right? And it's breaking down silos within those organizations. So I would say it's a a journey to get stood up for sure. Um, but I think that it makes it a lot easier. Like I've had clients after the fact come and say, I've actually have a seat at the table now when it comes to my specific processes internally that I am responsible for because now I'm a part of this, we'll say, governance board for service now.

Keith 12:21

Right. And and so is it, and this might be a little dramatic, but do you sometimes feel like you're like the organizational therapist sometimes when you're going in? Because you're you're it sounds like you're talking to all these different groups. Um, you're kind of building bridges and mending fences, making sure everyone plays nice in the sandbox to get to this kind of stranger lost state. Is that is that a fair statement?

Cheyenne 12:40

Yeah, I would I would say so. I feel like either way, like in my career life or in my personal life, I've I've always kind of been that way. Uh like I love just networking and talking to people and finding solutions and just discovering and learning. So I feel like just understanding where people are at and kind of bringing them on that journey with you helps a lot. Like we're in your corner, you're not alone. And this is going to be here, are the results that you could achieve if you know we work together.

Keith 13:12

That's amazing. Do you like do you have any stories that you can share around just maybe some like what is the art of the possible here? Um I'm sure that you know how much time do we have probably is the answer. I know you have lots of uh experience on this realm. But like what are some of your favorite stories of kind of what actually could happen when these things go right?

Governance That Enables Speed

Cheyenne 13:29

Yeah, that's a really good question. Like, and I'm just thinking too like there's various, various different projects that I've been involved in. Um, but I mean some of the stuff that has come out recently around you know artificial intelligence and automation, like what is automation versus AI? Sorry. That's okay. I need a little drink here quickly. Okay. Yeah. So I would say I would say that um some of the the cooler projects that I've been involved in is probably when you you know you can help somebody implement, let's say, for example, software asset management, right? They have no visibility into their software estate. They are potentially at risk for things like audit. But now we're talking about, okay, what does your hardware asset management process look like? Because IT onboarding and offboarding is so related to that, right? So now you're bringing in the hardware asset management team. Okay, but how did the assets get in there in the in the first place into your CMDB? Oh, well, that's your your configuration management team, right? And so you're starting to connect all these pieces. It's kind of like a puzzle that you're putting together as you go along. And the more you build out this puzzle within the organization, it comes together. Um, and so I've seen a ton of really cool things. Uh, I mean, even just some applications that that have been built in the past where, you know, you're able to track a specific location of say a kid is at school and they have, you know, oh, a smartwatch or whatnot, able to track if that child leaves a specific vicinity and you start getting alerts and and things like that. Think about what you can do with animals or potentially people that are older in, you know, a um in a in a house, in a home, right? And being able to just just track if they leave that specific vicinity and alerting, you know, the family or the authorities that these people are missing. So there's just the possibilities are endless, and I there's so many stories.

Keith 15:46

I feel like that's probably what makes it exciting, though, is that you get to, you know, I I imagine no one day is the same as you're solving all these really complex challenges for your customers. Um so on the topic of customers, who makes a good customer for some of these platforms? Because I know that they're they're big investments.

Cheyenne 16:05

Yes.

Keith 16:06

And so if I'm you know Joe's House of Pizza, um, you know, do I make a good ServiceNow customer versus if I'm NASA, do I make a good ServiceNow customer? And I have no knowledge of either those Joe's House of Pizza or NASA ServiceNow customers.

Cheyenne 16:19

But yeah, I would say I would say typically around the thousand person mark, usually. Um, I mean there are smaller organizations that are using ServiceNow. Again, it depends on you know the revenue and and the uh the money uh of capital investment that you do have in that, but you can get value immediately, right? You can get quick value actually within say like four to six weeks of of implementing a solution, right? And so I've seen from very small organizations from like 500 up to you know 60,000, 120,000 employees leveraging service now, right? And it's gonna be a different journey for everybody. But the good thing is, is a lot of the functionality that is valuable is there out of the box. It's just ensuring that it's configured properly and that you're getting all of the information in there that you need to so that you can get the the ROI right um out of the out of the product.

Keith 17:15

So that makes sense. And I feel like ServiceNow, as well as being on a journey of you know, some fun acquisitions, adding lots of different features, functionality uh into the platform. And yes, you know, a fun tie back to um you know, Interplus. Aaron, I have a mutual friend. Yes, um, I love Aaron. Was it at MoveWorks? So I think uh and I guess it's not even just anymore, it's probably been like a year and a half now, but yes, just bought MoveWorks. And so, like what what where does where do you see this platform going? Like, where do you what's the the vision of kind of where this technology is bringing organizations?

Cheyenne 17:46

Yeah, that's a really good question. And uh shout out to Aaron because we're still friends. I talk to him all the time. Um we uh taking all the move works you've probably seen on LinkedIn. I was like, I have to get all of this done over the weekend so that I know what I'm talking about, right? And so it's such an exciting acquisition. So move works being, you know, um a great add-on to the platform, um, just the AI platform for for transformation. But like, what does that actually mean, right? Is you know, you're able to connect to all of these different applications within an organization. I think the way that ServiceNow is approaching it is is good. I think that you know, they are leading with AI and they have been for a really long time. Like, you know, they've had performance analytics for for many, many years. And so they've it they've been investing in this behind the scenes as as much as you know, people might not understand, they they do have quite a bit of investment in in AI when it comes to when it comes to the platform, the AI platform, right?

Keith 18:49

Very cool. And and AI, I'm I'm sure, even when you talk about some of the the art of the possible, yeah, it is making that art of the possible obviously much um more possible.

Cheyenne 18:59

Yes.

Keith 18:59

Um how was the AI conversation um and some of the advancements they're having um right now shaping the conversations you're having with your your customers, your peers, your partners, yeah, um, with ServiceNow?

Cheyenne 19:11

Yeah, I think that's a good question because when you look at AI, like there's many different solutions out there today. The biggest thing that I would recommend um, you know, clients that are investing in this. I know a lot of people are, whether, you know, it's the standard push through the organization of a specific application, right? Or you're using it. Like I have my kids asking me, can I use, you know, GPT or they're gonna say service now?

Keith 19:35

It's like you're very brave children to be like, I keep convincing them.

CMDB And Asset Data As A Puzzle

Cheyenne 19:38

I'm like, you guys need to do now learning and you know, yeah, and the platform now. And now's the time. So um, but yeah, back to your point there, I would say that you know, there's all these different AI solutions and having a centralized location where you can actually manage AI as you would an asset. So thinking about it as a hardware, software asset or a virtual machine, right? You still have to manage that. So it still has a life cycle. You have to bring it into the organization. Is this something that we're gonna buy or are we gonna build it? How are we going to build it? What is the security and the governance and what is our risk profile? So almost like a threat monitoring kind of scenario that you have to go through or threat modeling when it comes to AI. And the good thing about ServiceNow is they have what's called the AI control tower, where you can manage all of the AI um systems within your organization and you can track it, which I believe they're one of the only providers on the market right now, which is a huge differentiator. Totally. It ties into all of your other processes.

Keith 20:46

Yeah. Well, and I've I've had this conversation probably far too many times over the last like I'd say months specifically, when you know people talk about um you know, the SAS pocalypse or whatever it is. Um and I think that there's a especially right now, a built-in rigidity that actually becomes really helpful with some of these more enterprise grade platforms that that kind of keep you disciplined as people are figuring it out. And like the platforms and kind of the models are gonna change over, you know, the next five, 10 years, like anything will. Yeah. But but right now, like the ability to do whatever you want whenever you want is also like from an enterprise risk control from a governance perspective, also like freaking terrifying. Yes, yes, it is. Uh, you know, everything from a I'm getting a little bit nerdy here, but like from a data hygiene perspective to you know, what are like how does that all fit together? The ability to have an ecosystem that contains it all, I can imagine is probably a big part of the conversation you're having right now.

Cheyenne 21:41

Yes, absolutely. Even just, you know, a lot of and you'll see organizations are at such different points. Like, you know, do you have an AI governance board set up? Like you need to think about it like your other processes that you have in place, right? And um, just ensuring that you're working closely with the stakeholders within the Organization, right? Because now you're getting finance involved, you're getting legal involved, um, ensuring that we're we're building or we're um we are showcasing, I guess, like adopting AI internally with a an ethical perspective, right? And still keeping that human aspect to it because I feel like I can go down the whole path of like human centricity when it comes to what our future looks like with an IT. And I feel like that's going to be something that's very important. Um, I don't think that we're going to, you know, have AI automate everything. It would be great if it could do my laundry. Yeah. That would be amazing. Um, but you know, it's it there's a lot of summarization and things that it can do. Um, you know, just ensuring that that we have that human touch because I feel like I'm gonna start going on a path of, you know, why communicate, why you and I are sitting in this room today and why that is so important um in the next few years here.

Keith 23:02

A hundred percent. You know, even uh the concept of trust and authenticity, it it's it's so easy to create stuff now that the ability to have that humanness to it, like you said, is really important. You know, I saw a funny meme um the other day, and I feel like maybe this is the first time I mentioned like a meme on the podcast with it somebody that we made it. Um that you know talked about, you know, I want AI to do my laundry um so I can focus on the creative stuff, not do the creative stuff so I can focus on doing my laundry.

Cheyenne 23:31

Yes. Yes, I would love that. I would love just you know a little robot that comes around. Yeah.

Keith 23:36

Would you have would so I like would you have a robot in your house?

Cheyenne 23:38

This is I would have to look at the specs of the specific robot um from you know a security perspective. That's big. Um how far can it go from a learning perspective? Um, those types of things. So I would I'm not opposed to it, but I would definitely want to take a second look at how that robot was built.

Keith 24:03

Um, would you want it to be more like of a human looking robot or like would it look more like a roomba? Is that less threatening?

Cheyenne 24:09

Yeah, I feel like a roomba, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Keith 24:12

Not one of the the black uh what is it, black mirror army dog things?

Cheyenne 24:17

Yes. No, no. But if it was a robot dog, that would kind of be cool. Yeah.

Keith 24:21

So I I feel like okay, robot dogs are they're happening.

Cheyenne 24:25

Yeah, yeah.

Keith 24:26

I think they had those a long time ago. Like they like I think they were more probably way less capable than a robot dog of today.

Cheyenne 24:31

Yes. It reminds me of the like Furbies, right? Oh my goodness.

Keith 24:35

I still have and the Tamagotchis. I don't know if you ever had a Tamagotchi. Yes. Where they were essentially be it was before phones, you just became a slave to this little thing you had to feed every six hours.

Cheyenne 24:45

Yes, yes. I do remember just rushing home from school. I think I probably was in like the fifth or sixth grade or something, and I have to rush home and take care of my little Tamagotchi on the screen. Yeah. Maybe that's for all my IT stuff stuff.

Keith 24:57

I think that's all start of the Tamagotchi. I think so. And the Furby size, I think I still have like not actual PTSD, but um, like I remember like after the Furby craze, I remember like tucking it away in a closet somewhere, and then it would occasionally just like chime up, and you would just have nightmares. It's like this screeching, yelling purple thing screamed from your closet.

Cheyenne 25:17

Yes, yeah. I'm sure there's still a few going like 25 years later. Probably.

Keith 25:20

I don't think they actually die. I think they actually run up with screams. Um so back to back because we went on a little bit of a tour there. Um so you talk with a lot of people, like I'm assuming that that have like have they invested in ServiceNow already? They're looking for help. Um, are they on the cusp of making some of those purchases? Like, where do you usually meet your customers in their journey?

Cheyenne 25:43

Honestly, wherever they're at, I you know, there's so many different scenarios, right? They could be, you know, a legacy ServiceNow customer, which we say, you know, you've had it for 10 plus years now. So a lot of the time we go into those environments and they're not aligned to common services data model, which is basically um ensuring that the right data is in the right tables so that you know any process you adopt down the road is going to give you the value. So there's a lot of a lot of those remediation type projects that we do. Um, there's still a lot of clients that are just starting out with ServiceNow. And usually they'll go on the service operations uh to start with, right? So they want to get their IT service management, their IT operations management processes in place. They could have had ServiceNow for, you know, a couple of years and they're looking to adopt new features and functionality. So they want to start looking into hardware asset and software asset and and things like that. So honestly, I've I've seen it all. There's various clients across the board that are on way different journeys.

Keith 26:45

And and what are some of the pitfalls that you see them make as they're, you know, like I said, they're they they are big dollar investments. But like what are some of the the common things that you see people, you know, maybe I'm shooting themselves in the foot or going astray? You're like, if if only, you know, I wish you'd listen to me on these three things. Is there any patterns that you see? Yeah, absolutely.

AI Direction And MoveWorks

Cheyenne 27:04

Yes, yeah. I would say the biggest thing is configuration and customization, right? So really understanding do is this something that we actually need to customize to fit our process? Or is this something where we need to maybe adjust our process to be more aligned to best practices so that we don't have to customize? I know there obviously are some scenarios, but ensuring that you're tracking that, you know that there's an associated cost because anytime you go to upgrade or you know, patch, it's gonna be a little notification, like, hey, you have technical debt over here. But it's it's about, you know, does that does that customization actually have value? And so really thinking about that and just making sure that it's documented and it's constantly reviewed, similar to like any type of code that you would have, right? You want to ensure that this is something that somebody is own owning moving forward because it can lead you in in the wrong path. And then, you know, you can't upgrade or you can't get some of the new features and and whatnot.

Keith 28:08

So you brought up a really interesting point, and we went through a similar challenge with one of our customers on a different platform. But the idea of what is that ownership um and kind of almost product strategy um look like going forward, and because it's not a set and forget. Yes, no, right? No. And and I think with some of these enterprise systems, people think, okay, I, you know, I I decide I need platform X. I I buy it, I implement it, um, and they all high five and get excited and okay, we're done. Um but really like there it's a journey.

Cheyenne 28:43

It it is, and that's that's one huge piece that that we do focus on. And something that I'm very passionate about is just, you know, when we're implementing technology for for a client, ensuring that they do have process, they have governance, it's documented, people understand what their roles and responsibilities are. You know, we could go through the whole racy concept again, um, so that they're operationally sustainable moving forward. Because the worst thing that that I think any partner can kind of go in and do is just kind of drop technology to these clients that maybe this is new for them. This is, you know, maybe they're used to another solution and they're coming into the platform and they just need help and guidance, which is the foundation of how we we built Skymark, right? Is we want to ensure that ongoing, sustainable relationship with the client so that we're not just there, we're not just implementing and walking away. No, that they know that they have somebody in their corner to help them if it comes to it. Um so yeah, I I feel like, you know, it could be things like ongoing training sessions. Uh, one big thing actually, you can find a lot of free documentation online as well if you just go to like the doc site is how to stand up your own internal ServiceNow governance board. So how are how are others within the organization asking to, you know, use this technology? So we we call it demand and intake as a part of like portfolio management. And then we have our technical governance board, which is, you know, you could have many different technical governance boards. So for ServiceNow specifically, you know, you want one for ITSM, you may want one for AI, you may want one for software asset. But at the end of the day, they all need to come together and make decisions on what that roadmap looks like looks like moving forward. And then just ensuring that, you know, you also have your change board. So who's approving that change when it goes to production? And so this is something that is ongoing. And typically I say, you know, your governance board should be meeting every month at least, especially if you know, ServiceNow is a is a huge investment within the organization.

Keith 30:50

And and so how much of that is ServiceNow proprietary, and how much of that is just is is best practice? Because if I think about a scenario, let's say I have ServiceNow, I have Salesforce, I have SAP, um, you know, I I imagine that all of these platforms have similar challenges. Like is this just more of an enterprise best practice, or how much of that documentation would you say is is ServiceNow specific um in that kind of nuanced level?

Cheyenne 31:18

I would say it's completely too agnostic, right? Like, so if you're looking at any technology across the board, is you're you're I would totally recommend governance, like having those governance boards, right? Because at the end of the day, you're looking at your IT strategic roadmap. And that could be, you know, uh technology for HR, technology for accounting. It could be anything, but at the end of the day, we're all using technology to some capacity, right? So you'll have this governing board that oversees and owns this strategic roadmap for the organization. And those people need to decide when are we going to do this? Is there anything overlapping? Is there anything that could potentially collide within, you know, this vast majority of business applications that we have today? And uh, you know, is this something that we're going to invest invest in right away? Are a lot of people asking for this? You know, is there potentially security-related pieces we need to consider about consider? Um, and just that that board is so tool agnostic. I think that it should be existing with every within every organization.

Keith 32:28

I I I I could not agree more. And like I I think it's it's so important to have some of those frameworks. So from your perspective, and this might be opening up a tiny bit of a can of worms, who who leads that within an organization? Because like from our perspective, we're seeing so much more of the business driving these conversations outside of just your traditional kind of CIO, C CTO, etc. Um have you seen a shift in kind of who's owned, take carrying that baton, so to speak?

AI Governance And Human Trust

Cheyenne 32:57

I would say, I would say in in some ways, yes. So ultimately you want to have an executive sponsor, somebody that's gonna, you know, um, be accountable for everything within within the org. Um, but I also see a lot of, you know, you'll have uh if you look at it from a business application or enterprise architecture perspective, you'll have somebody that owns it from an IT perspective that can actually support in the back end, right? And then you have a business owner. And so that's where they have that domain expertise. That is also something that's very critical when we talk about AI as well, is you know, you have those two people need to be working very close together, almost like a business partnership, right? You're working at the same organization, you know, the domain expert needs this, the IT person can help get that and you know, figure that how do we get to that goal? But it's honestly those those people working together. So there's various different roles within the governance structure, but I would say those two are critical with the executive sponsors is huge.

Keith 34:04

I I love it. And and so I feel like you, yeah, you you there's an incredible wealth of knowledge around this topic. Um, like how how that's a weird question. Like, how did you how did you get all of this knowledge? Like, is it um is it all customer facing? Is it training? Like, is it um you shut yourself in a room for 10 years? Like like what's the secret to kind of getting to this kind of expert level around a specific domain like you have?

Cheyenne 34:32

That's very nice of you. Um honestly, I think that passion drives a lot. So as soon as I, you know, could figure this out and I I learned about it, I was just very passionate. I'm like, how can I get better? What can I do? And I'm just on, you know, all these free courses that are offered online. So I'm like, okay, teach myself how to build this, you know, mobile application using JavaScript or, you know, just finding something that you're so passionate about and just diving into it, right? And just also people I would say are huge. So I have a lot of people that I'm very fortunate to have mentored me and taught me and encouraged me along the way. Uh, so I feel like if if you have those two things, your people and your passion, then you can conquer the world.

Keith 35:26

I think that's really good advice. Is there any advice like if you look back to Cheyenne of Energy days? Um is there anything advice that you'd give yourself knowing what you know now?

Customization Debt And Platform Ownership

Cheyenne 35:38

Oh, that's a loaded question. I mean, there's a lot of advice I would give you. Um I would say I have a few things that come to mind and hopefully we can kind of like pause for a second here so that I can think about how I want to articulate it. Um I need advice that I would give myself. So I would say some of the advice that I would give myself is you know, you're you're not alone. I feel like I internalized a lot. And I always felt like, you know, it was me against the world in some way. Um you know, I had a lot, I had a lot of responsibility from a very young age. Um and I always just like push, push, push, and do it like you have no choice, like you have to figure this out. And just knowing that you have people to support you and people that encourage you and are there for you, like reach out for that help. That I would say that's probably the most important and biggest thing that I I probably got my own way on is you know, you can do this by yourself. And um just knowing that you have people in your corner that support you.

Keith 37:16

Are you good at asking for help for things or are now like have you learned those lessons?

Cheyenne 37:21

Yeah. Now, yeah. Yes, I have now for sure. There's still times where you know, I internally fight myself and I'm like, you can figure this out. And then, you know, maybe it's like a couple hours and I'm like, ah, so to have someone else on the shoulder. Excuse me. Yeah. Can you please help me? Um, so yes, I have learned. I've learned the hard ways for sure. Yeah.

Keith 37:42

And and so what does that feel like then? Like, you know, moving into this partner role at the new your advisory firm, you know, all of a sudden you have some some partners at the table with you.

Cheyenne 37:51

Yeah.

Keith 37:51

Um, like what has that shift been like for you?

Cheyenne 37:54

Oh, it's awesome. Yeah, it's awesome. Especially like I've I've known these guys for many, many years, very close friends. Um, I know I can trust them. Everybody works with integrity and accountability. The team we have is so great. Um, and that's another thing. Like, I'm very passionate about, you know, helping people and mentoring them and building a team that, you know, has autonomy to go out and, you know, explore and be creative and do the fun things and work. And yeah, there's gonna be some some hard stuff to get through for sure. But, you know, you have a team around you, really great people, and you also have the freedom to explore what you're passionate about as well.

Keith 38:36

Well, I know we talked about it a little bit in the the like before we started recording as well, but you know, you you've had such an interesting career directory, starting in Enterplus, you know, working at a boutique consulting firm that grew and eventually got acquired by Megacorp. Um what are some of those lessons that you you take from you know all of those different places when you think about the the culture that you want to uh impart um on your own organization when you think about the the type of business that you want to be? Yeah. Um how does that shape kind of what you're building today?

Career Lessons And Building Culture

Cheyenne 39:11

Yeah, that's a really good question. I feel like you know, I've kind of been in all the different scenarios, you know, throughout my career. And there's been, you know, a lot of really great people that have supported me. And then there's also been some people where I'm like, I don't want to be a leader like that. And so you take those lessons and you apply them so that you know you can be the best leader that that you can be, and you can have a a team that you know is going to support each other. Not saying that that I wasn't supported in in any way at all, but you know, throughout your career and you know, even as a parent, right? You're thinking about, you know, could I have done this differently or would they, you know, would they be a little different if this happened? And you know, you think about those different scenarios, and I think you just lean in with, you know, a more of an open mind and versus you know, this is how it's done very structurally, right? Um, and so I'm very grateful for all of the lessons. Like, I mean, going through an acquisition on its own is is very interesting. You learn a lot of different things, um, things that I wouldn't have learned at all. But I feel like everything I'm I'm a huge believer in that like everything happens for a reason, right? And I feel like I've been put on this path so that I know what makes people feel good and what makes people want to come to work every day and wake up and be a part of something big and and building, and and that's what I'm passionate about. So just you know, being happy and coming to work and doing cool things and you know, solving all the world's problems.

Keith 40:48

I I like it. And I I you know, I think that there's something to be said for just having fun with what you're doing. Um, you know, at the end of the day, like there's far more serious things in the world sometimes than configuring your CMDB. Yes, we're not saving babies, but well, t potentially there's probably you could probably find some sort of cause and causation there. But um, but I I think that that's so powerful just to say like you can you can create the the way you want to show up every day, and hopefully that kind of permeates to the organization. Yeah. And you know, if life's too short and not to have fun.

Cheyenne 41:21

It's so true. It's so true. And especially when, you know, I I have three children and you know, I I'm working all day long, right? I have there's balance, right? There has to be balance. And like, I'm you know, I'm gonna wake up and I'm gonna do something that I enjoy because I'm sacrificing not being with my kids all day. So I think that's something that definitely switched with me over some years for sure.

Keith 41:48

But but but here's a question that I'll ask you, because I I went through a similar transition where I, you know, um we helped to to build an organization, um, you know, left and and started my own thing too.

Cheyenne 41:59

Yeah.

Keith 42:00

I don't think that I work any less. And in fact, I probably work more, but I think that there's a lot more, like I feel accountable in a different way.

Cheyenne 42:08

Yes.

Keith 42:08

And I think that like at least for myself, like I'm there for the the things that I really want to be there for. And you know, if you to asked uh Ali and my wife or Parker, who's three and a half, so she's probably just excited, regardless. Um, you know, I think that I'm probably more present, not less now. Yes, um, in this new um world.

Cheyenne 42:27

Yes, I I totally understand exactly where you're coming from with that, right? Yeah, totally related.

How To Reach Cheyenne And Close

Keith 42:35

Um, you know, Cheyenne, this has been an absolute pleasure to have you on. I feel like um thank you so much for taking the time. This has been a great discussion. If people want to get in touch with you, if they want to learn more about the work that you're doing, if they want to um sign up for all your services, uh what's the best way to get in touch with you?

Cheyenne 42:53

Yeah, so uh skymarkgroup.io. Um, I can also be found on LinkedIn. You can just search my name, Cheyenne, ServiceNow Calgary. I'm sure you'll find me. Um so yeah, if anybody is is interested in interested in in getting in touch or even just having a conversation, you know, you want to learn more about ServiceNow, always happy to support and mentor people as well. So feel free to reach out.

Keith 43:16

Amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show today. And uh, I hope you have a wonderful rest of your Tuesday.

Cheyenne 43:21

Thank you so much, Keith, for having me. It's great to see you again. You too.

Keith 43:25

Yeah, this has been awesome.

Cheyenne 43:26

Yes, thank you so much.

Keith 43:28

Perfect. If you've made it this far, like and subscribe on YouTube or follow and leave a review on your favorite podcasting platform so you don't miss any future episodes.