Cold Open On Human Work

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Like a lot of the scientific pieces and a lot of the you know mass calculation, all those kind of stuff. We have to say Sayonara to those kind of things. But you know, you know, human creativity, um, human relationship building is is still going to be important.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

Welcome to another episode of Sell Me This Podcast. This week we have an incredible conversation with Zoe Harrison where we talk about all things risk, board governance when it comes to AI, and the role that technology plays in financial and highly regulated institutions. Enjoy. Welcome to another episode of Sell Me This Podcast. I am super excited for today's conversation, and we're going to dive right into it. Zoe, I'm super honored to have you today. We met for coffee, I don't know, it feels like probably three or four months ago.

SPEAKER_02 0:49

I think so, yeah.

From Risk To Strategy

SPEAKER_00 0:49

I think we've rescheduled this a few times based on some unplanned surgeries, and the world kind of took over a tiny bit. Um, but really excited that we got to do this today. We're gonna jump right into things. Why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself, um your life story, and kind of where you uh came from?

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Sure. Um proud Calgarian. Uh moved here as a child when I was about 10 years old. Um, my background is in risk management, but I've spent the last 20 years working in corporate strategy in um banks and insurance companies. And throughout that time, data, digital transformation, and more recently AI has become a super important um lens to be looking at corporate strategy through. And so that's kind of what I'm working on at the moment. Um, digital transformation in banks and insurance companies, um, a little bit of fintech work here and there to kind of keep me sharp and make sure I know what's uh what's happening in the industry. And uh that's really how we connected um was what was on that end. We met at Platform, um, a great spot in uh in Calgary to uh to connect with other entrepreneurs, other tech nerds, and uh yeah, super excited to be here. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

Are you calling me a tech nerd? I am.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Takes one to call one. I feel yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

I feel like uh you we see each other in the crowd. Yes. Um I will wear that with uh with a badge of honor there. So you know you alluded to it, we met at platform. Um, you know, I've loved every conversation that we've had so far, and I feel like we we see the world in a similar way. You know, to dive right into things, I uh the world is changing incredibly quickly right now. And I know that there's some some big words and some big themes that always kind of pop up. You talked about AI, you talked about digital transformation. Um, you know, risk is a really important lens to view those those topics with. From your background, especially coming from the finance and the insurance side of things, you know, what kind of gift does that give you as you're evaluating some of these new technologies?

SPEAKER_01 2:51

Well, I I always say, you know, like the best innovators I actually find um in the risk management department. And it's not something that um people typically think of. You know, when you think of a risk manager, you think of, you know, typically the the department is there to stop you from doing something dangerous, and and they are, but I think from you know an enterprise risk management lens, we are trained to look at things from, you know, yes, mitigating the downside, but also making sure that we're putting things in place to make sure that we are able to achieve that upside and and look at it from that perspective. Um, I've always worked in highly regulated, very traditional organizations, and I'm probably, I like to say I'm the weirdest person they could ever imagine being in those environments. But I think it's um it's a really interesting lens because you have to kind of understand the the context and the environment that you're trying to innovate in, trying to make changes, um, but also make sure that you're you're pushing as hard as you can in the areas that that need to be pushed. So it's it's really finding that balance and and and towing that line of kind of making sure you're pushing as far as you can, but within a uh a boundary that that works for the organization and what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

So that makes a lot of sense to me. And I I feel like that conversation around risk management is really prevalent in some of the more established regulated industries. But if you were to be talking to someone that that maybe doesn't have that level of oversight, I think that the idea of risk management in its traditional sense is probably a little bit foreign as it's kind of pure discipline.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Um so if you were to explain to someone, if someone's tuned into the episode and they're like, you know, what ex what exactly is risk management? Um, if you were to give the elevator pitch for risk management, kind of what does that world entail and and what does that life look like?

SPEAKER_01 4:43

So the world of risk management is basically making sure you're creating the environment that you can achieve your business goals in a way that is sustainable and in a way that works for your organization. I think, you know, one of the myths is that that risk may basically tells you that you can't do anything. Um, but I really find that coming from a risk lens allows you to do so much more because you're preparing for what could go wrong. You're thinking about, okay, what could go wrong, and then from that perspective, you mitigate. And so rather than kind of saying, yes, I'm 100% in, I really want to do this, and just going gung-ho without thinking about things, or the other side of being like, oh, that that feels risky, I'm not doing that. You're going through a four-step process of identifying what could go wrong, what are the risks, truly assessing them in terms of like, okay, if this happened, how bad would this be? And how likely is it that it's going to happen? And that gives you a little bit of a better sense of, you know, how truly risky something is and what you might have to put in place to kind of reduce that risk a little bit. So that kind of phase we call uh mitigation. So once you've kind of assessed how bad and how likely it is that this is gonna happen, you put things in place to make sure it's less likely. And if it does happen, less bad. And that's really, you know, to me, it it gives a lot of a lot more freedom to the kind of things that you're trying to do by actually thinking about what's gonna go wrong. So then you can fix it. So then if something does go wrong, you're calm, you've expected this, you've put things in place, and then you can kind of move ahead from there.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

And so I could talk about risk all day long, and I feel like this is a fascinating topic because and and I'm kind of co-opting this from someone actually that was on the podcast in one of our first episodes. People really suck at identifying and managing risk. And that's you know, there is uh really interesting article that came out that kind of talked about, you know, we've we've evolved to kind of be looking on the horizon for the lion that's about to eat us. Um, and some of the risk that we're trying to contemplate now can seem really overwhelming, really scary, or just even hard to wrap our heads around.

SPEAKER_02 6:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

Um, you know, let alone with the technology advancement, but just think about the business environment.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, uh it it it can feel overwhelming, and that's why there's the tendency if you you haven't been kind of trained in that, or if you're not naturally that you don't naturally have that lens and and and think things through, it can feel super overwhelming. So really the focus is again is kind of like using your approach of identifying, assessing, mitigation, and and practicing that muscle when you're kind of going through really helps. Also breaking the big nebulous scary thing down into man more manageable pieces. I always tell my my 13-year-old daughter, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. And that's really, you know, a great lens to look at something that feels very scary. It's it's really taking a look and and diving in and seeing what components are in that risk and figuring out how you can kind of start working with those individual pieces that gives you a lot more comfort.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

So that makes a lot of sense. And so is there formal training that you you need, or is it a muscle that you need to build up? Is it a combination of both? How does one become a seasoned risk um manager or even advising around some of this risk?

SPEAKER_01 8:08

You know, I think if you want to go into the formal um places of risk management, absolutely there's training. You can take your uh Canadian risk manager, there's financial risk management, there's there's a whole episode that could be dedicated to how you can get that formal piece. But really, to me, you know, as an innovator, I'm not directly working in risk, you know, in a formal risk role, but I apply a risk perspective at all times, right? So I think everybody can think about, start thinking about, you know, really understanding and breaking down the risk, assessing how bad, how often, and figuring out the mitigations around there. And that to me is a muscle. That's a way that I think, that's a way that I'm able to feel comfortable taking larger risks because I don't actually think those risks are that big in the end. You know, I've broken them down into manageable pieces, control what I can control, and then it's a much smaller leap to kind of go that far to do something new or to implement a new technology if you've done that breakdown piece. And I think that's that's for everyone and to give people a lot of a lot more comfort as they're as they're working in in whatever area they're in.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

I I love how you framed that. And you know, to maybe even kind of add on what you're saying, it if I'm understanding it properly, it you're really saying that by understanding that problem, breaking it into those smaller chunks, it no longer is this kind of big ominous um leap forward. It's really how how do we just take these logical steps now? Yeah. And you take the emotion out of it.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

Absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

So are you are you a risk forward person like a Zoe is a human being outside of the the work and the consulting? Like, are you a risk-averse person in general, or is this you know what?

SPEAKER_01 9:52

I I would say people probably on the surface think that I'm I'm not risk averse. Uh, because I think naturally having I think A, part of it is my personality, and B, you know, I've been trained for 20 years to do these assessments, and I do it quite naturally in terms of breaking it down, doing the identification and assessment and mitigation. That's naturally how I feel, I see things. Um, probably what people who don't know me well look at me, you know, running off and doing something new, switching careers, trying skydiving, all of these kind of things. And people don't necessarily expect me as a risk manager or someone who's worked in, you know, a very traditional industry to be doing these things. Um, and to me, I I feel like I, yes, I'm just doing my due diligence and allowing myself to take bigger risks because I've broken them down and I and I truly understand what I'm what I'm taking on.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

So it's you're it's no longer the risk, it's more of just the next step because you understand all the inputs and outputs.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

Absolutely. I feel I feel very comfortable because I've naturally kind of gone through my my preparation on the inside. Yeah. Uh and then people are probably like, whoa, you've changed your mind. You've done this. I'm like, no, I've gone through all the scenarios, I figured it out. I'm very comfortable with this.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

That reminds me a lot, and you know, I used to do a lot of work in more of the kind of GRC and security space. And I hated the narrative, and I was always uh, you know, uh you know, upset with the narrative that security is this big, bad, scary thing. Yeah. Like, you know, here's all the the threat actors, and the bad thing is gonna happen, and someone's gonna ransom your company. And those are all real threats and real risks you have to mitigate. Yeah, but I always loved the conversation of security being the thing that unlocks everything else. 100%. And and it allows you to do all the things you want to do because you have the framework to be able to trust what you're wanting to do. If you want to work from the cabin, if you want to work from the camping spot, you can do that because you you trust that the security protocols are in place. And it sounds like just exploding that to kind of one level um higher is kind of the work that you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

Yeah, absolutely. I think you know, it's what we're what the purpose of enterprise risk is not to block you from achieving your business goals. It's it's to actually make it happen and and and build that trust in there. Um, I think sometimes risk management gets a bad rap that it's, you know, a checklist and it's just you know barrier after barrier. But I really like the way that you frame that there around it's it's it's creating trust, it's creating a safe space to be able to innovate, do something new, um, and actually achieve the business goals that you're that you're going for.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

So you're not Toby from the office that's just coming down and be like, no, you can't do this and can't do this.

AI Hype Versus Business Problems

SPEAKER_01 12:37

No, nope, no. I uh you know, I I it is something it is a reputation that that we have, but um it's something that I'm actively railing against and and fighting against the Trevor Burrus, J it's your life's mission. You're like, It's my life's mission, you know, that and having a grounded conversation about AI, you know, that's those those are my two things for for the year.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

Uh so so let's move over to the grounded conversation around AI. Because I I think these things do go hand in hand. What are the big misconceptions that you see with people as they're starting these AI conversations?

SPEAKER_01 13:06

I think, well, I think that the the challenge is with AI is that it's become so ubiquitous and it's it's basically a word that that means very little at this point, or or very little or way too much, depending on depending on who you talk to. Um and I'm finding more and more I'm having conversations with um with clients, with boards, that they're like, you know, we want to, we want to talk about AI, or I'm talking to management and they're saying, you know, I was told on my scorecard that I need to do AI. And, you know, people are people are familiar, you know, some of them have used Chat GPT, people have used different things. They're hearing agentic, they're hearing um scary things about the environmental impact of this. Like there's just there's a cacophony of sound around AI. And, you know, from a business perspective, I think, you know, the the once again, it's all it's all about breaking down into you know what's real and what's possible for an individual organization or an individual business and and really bringing it back to what what is needed by the business. What are your biggest business problems that you are trying to solve? What kind of AI can help that? Sometimes, you know, kill me if I maybe I should we should block that part out. Um what um what I would say about AI. Uh sorry, I'm like stalling here now. Where are we going with this?

SPEAKER_00 14:34

You're talking about the cacophony of things or the cacophony of sound.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

Um, you know, the key is to to bring it into something that is relevant and makes sense for your organization. So it's always bringing back to the key knowledge domain, the key business problems that you're trying to solve. Sometimes AI can solve that, many different kinds of AI. Sometimes AI doesn't solve everything and it's not a panacea. So to me, it's taking a look again, bringing yourself back to what the business problems are that you're looking at. Um, and and seeing kind of like then applying, you know, what technology, be it AI, be it something else, that that can help you with that.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Thank you so much for saying that. There's so many people, and and I was having this conversation with one of our consultants this morning, yeah, that look at the power of what AI can do and get super excited, and maybe they're getting pressure from their board or their executive and saying, okay, well, we're just gonna march around and say and say, everyone use more AI.

SPEAKER_02 15:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

Um, make sure to just put your whole life into Chat GPT or Cloud or whatever it may be, and and now you're doing AI.

SPEAKER_02 15:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

And you know, I kind of liken it to imagine if you're building like a kid's treehouse and you show up with uh like big backhoe.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

Um it's a very powerful tool. It's gonna be really ineffective for solving the child like problem of building a kid's treehouse with this giant, giant piece of machinery. And I think that you would hit the nail on the head, you know, what is the right tool for the job? What is the thing we're trying to do? And then apply technology afterwards versus lead with technology. I feel like that would be a never work.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

Yeah, and it's it's hard because you know, we're we're we're techies, we're we're data nerds, you know, like it's it's exciting to be able to do that. But you know, especially now in this era, people are looking for return on investment in AI. And so that means getting really focused again on what your business problems are and how you're going to how you're going to solve it. So not just AI for the sake of sake of AI.

AI ROI Starts With Data

SPEAKER_00 16:35

And so I'd I'd love to kind of you know bring the AI conversation down to earth a tiny bit too, because around that business case side of things.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

You know, I think that there is this incredibly Shangri-La vision of what AI can do and what it what the roadmap of AI looks like. And I'm an AI optimist. I think that the world is going to be a much better place when we get some of these technologies doing the things that they're hopefully can do. But we're on a path there and I don't think we've arrived yet. Where are you seeing organizations start to realize some of that ROI, some of that like the actual tangible investments, or are we there yet? Like because I I still like am fine looking for those use cases.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

Um that seem to be few and far between of where it practically is making a difference.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Yeah. Well, I think we're we're in a bit of a transition now where you know their the last few years has been focused on experimentation and a lot of different kind of people, people putting money in different places just to see kind of what what works and what and what doesn't. Um so now I think people are coming towards the reality of, you know, your the AI is only as good as your data. And that is, I think, a big challenge for a lot of organizations, particularly the legacy organizations that I work with. Um these are organizations that have been around for a long time, have gone from analog to digital, there's MAs, there's stuff on paper, you know, regulations mean that we have to have things in certain formats, on-prem, on cloud. There, there's a whole bigger picture on that. So to me, you know, even before I start talking about, you know, AI solutions, a lot of boards and a lot of organizations have never had, you know, a really deep and serious conversation about their data quality, where their data's at, those kind of things. So again, like to me, the real ROI is taking a look at your business. Um, what are the business problems and also looking at, you know, where's your data? How is your data? What's the quality of it and seeing there? And to me, taking a look, taking a step back and looking at the big picture of like what the big problem is that you're trying to solve, that's where you want to start thinking about where the AI can can can help and do that. Because what what I'm seeing is sometimes people think there's quick wins, but a lot of quick wins aren't in the deep, tricky, hard parts of that. And so it's kind of finding that balance of like, okay, we want to focus on this, we want to figure out something that's actually doable and is going to make a measurable impact. And so it's gonna be interesting in the next few years, I think, as a lot of AI becomes more ubiquitous, more available in you know, off-the-shelf products, there's a lot less building, but it's kind of bringing it back to the business fundamentals of understanding, you know, how how your business is working, what you what you have to work with, and and making those kind of targeted bets from there.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

And and so how are you having those conversations? Because I I think that you know, balancing that immediacy of some of the ROI.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

And then saying, okay, here's the here's the finish line. Yeah. But we have to do all this work here, which is uh the data foundation work, which is, you know, you're talking my language, the most important work to do right now, and it's gonna set up for for such long-term success. But that doesn't like it's hard to justify the ROI of the data cleanup project.

SPEAKER_01 20:09

Correct. Correct. Well, you can use AI to help that, you know. That's true. I think, you know, I think a big part of that is is working with people to help them understand the AI journey, that it's not just this clean, beautiful, you know, you plug in an API and you're ready to go. It's it's being very transparent and showing, you know, the amount of work that it's going to take to bring things together. And what I find is there's a lot of that kind of data cleanup and those kind of unsung heroes. A lot of that work is going on, but that's not connected to the, you know, the business goals of what we're doing, the um, the AI story that you're trying to tell. So I'm spending a lot of time kind of trying to weave in these very necessary, maybe less exciting projects that have to come in there as core components of the AI story. Because I think people are very excited to talk about AI and people are pumped to be on the AI project and in there. But it it's a lot bigger. And in order for it to be successful, it has to involve other areas of the business. So I'm really focused on connecting those stories, connecting those pieces into a cohesive story that stakeholders can understand, that business people can understand, and ultimately that the that a board can understand.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

And so you you mentioned boards, and I feel like this is one of the reasons that um I think we originally first connected. I I feel like, and hopefully this isn't an overstatement or an understatement, you're kind of like the the board whisperer in uh in Calgary here. I know you do a lot of work with with boards yourself, but also a lot of um discussions around how to properly set up boards, around uh kind of board governance.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

At a board level, how are these AI conversations involving?

SPEAKER_01 21:58

Um it's it's really challenging. Because it people understand that this is a transformational piece of technology and you're you cannot escape the AI conversation. And you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of worry, I think, at the board level in terms of, you know, you know, are we going too fast? Are we going too slow? I don't really understand it, you know, and so again, it's it's all trying to bring it down into um an area that people understand. And usually like when you're on the board, there's an expertise in in the business that you're trying to do. And boards are responsible for the vision of an organization. And so if you can kind of again connect what potentially you're doing with AI to the vision and make sure that there's a clean path to there, that really helps with that conversation. Because I think there's there's a lot of worry and there's a lot of unknown. But to me, it's it's bringing it back to a space where where people are feel comfortable in. And a lot of times that's around the vision, that's around the business problems or your business aspirations and helping frame it within that level. So again, you're you're taking the elephant and you're you're finding those bites to feed your management, you're taking those bites to feed the the board to kind of help people break this piece down. Cause it's it's just too big to say, like, okay, what about AI? And you know, my I my always my response is like, well, what what about AI? Like, what do you want to talk about? Um, and I think, you know, keeping it focused on the business vision, the business goals, um, and the business problems that you're you're coming across that are blocking you from achieving that is a great place to start. And it's a place that people feel comfortable to having that conversation.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Totally. So so if you're if we were like, let's say that you you walked in and this is a boardroom, this is the most informal boardroom. I like live. It's good. Um, but you know, this is this is a board meeting, and you're you're new to the board, like what are some of the questions that you're asking that board if you're trying to get a lay of the land um in terms of what that strategy is? Because I I agree completely with what you're saying coming in, but we should do more AI is like saying like we should have more technology.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

Um it it's just not a productive um statement.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

But but how do you uncover some of those things if you're kind of understanding that lay of the land?

SPEAKER_01 24:24

That's an interesting question. So I think, you know, again coming back, um uh I almost don't call myself an AI consultant, you know, like I consider myself a business consultant. So so it's bringing it back to what are what are the challenges that you're that you're working with. Um also taking a look at what current state is, because I think now, especially there's a lot of AI if you're working with third-party vendors, even if you as an organization aren't using AI, you're probably touching an organization or using technology that that has it there somewhere. So even starting the project of beginning to identify where it's being used currently, where it could be used, those kind of conversations, that makes it a lot easier to bite off and chew. Um from a board perspective, there's also kind of an oversight challenge of, you know, I'm not sure how to have oversight of AI. And the the first conversation that I always like to have is with management and kind of just understanding where it's being used, what their view is on it. Ideally, you know, they've got some sort of reference to the use of artificial intelligence, either in a standalone policy or at the very least, maybe within their vendor management, third-party policy stuff. So again, having a policy conversation with boards is a is easy. That's our that's our bread and butter, that's the day piece. So every single time I'm trying to bring it back and anchor it in something that people feel comfortable and okay talking about because that feels less nebulous and feels like, okay, I can figure out how I'm going to use this and what I'm gonna do about it.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

So if I'm hearing you properly, you're talking about almost combining those two worlds where you bring that that risk conversation um over towards that technology side and then kind of create some of those parameters that they're familiar with from that kind of traditional business acumen to be able to ingest some of that technology.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

Absolutely.

Managing AI Risk Without Paralysis

SPEAKER_00 26:28

So speaking of of risk and AI, like I I find this a fascinating discussion right now as well. I think there's so much unknown with some of the models, some of the way that things are working, um, and and policy and governance around how you're using AI, like once you've kind of you know crossed that magical bridge into starting to use some of these solutions. How how does that conversation unfold around what does an organization's risk profile look like um from an AI standpoint?

SPEAKER_01 26:56

That's getting deep.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

We're diving in deep.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

We're diving in deep there. So, you know, I think around all of that, transparency is is very important, documentation is very important, um, but also understanding where the areas are that you know are maybe less less defined and less fuzzy. And to me, you know, any kind of um risk management and oversight, you know, like you never want to turn into a documentation organization, right? Like you're trying to achieve business goals, you're trying to do whatever it is that the organization is um is trying to achieve. So to me, it's it's looking at what are the riskiest areas, where are the pieces that, you know, okay, we really need to have a really strong handle on, you know, how we're how we're using technology, where we're doing that. And again, like that is that that's not an AI problem, that is a risk management problem. So it's it's it's applying the same way. It's just another element of element of that. And so it's figuring out kind of where are the riskiest areas and focusing and prioritizing that. And that's kind of where you're starting with the risk management, with policy, those kind of pieces, because you can absolutely grind to a halt trying to like de-risk everything. Again, it's figuring out what the what the priorities are, what's kind of highest risk that we need to to start taking down into a more manageable level.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

Are you seeing some of the risk appetite start to increase as some of these technologies are maybe changing the velocity that some of these organizations are wanting to move at?

SPEAKER_01 28:38

I don't think the risk appetite is changing. I think the the rating of the risk of what you're trying to do may be changing, right? So I think the risk appetite doesn't change. The way that you look at a particular choice that you're going to make is going to change. And that's by kind of really focusing on it, breaking things down, figuring out in those ways. I don't see people radically changing their approach. It's just on how they're they're applying that same risk appetite to different technologies. And the more that technology is around, the more that different types of AI is around. Um, we learn a lot more. There's a huge push on safe AI and a focus on transparency. So we're we're learning more as we go. So something that maybe felt very scary two years ago doesn't feel so scary now. And an example of that is you know, you saw a lot of big enterprises years ago completely banning um LLMs, Chat GPT, those kind of things, because it it was there's a lot of unknown, and people weren't sure what how to how to manage that. Now you're seeing a lot of you know internal instances, um ways that they've managed some of the risks of using this technology. So, you know, the the appetite hasn't changed, but what's available to them and their understanding of the technology has and makes it a lot more um compatible with the appetite.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

So in terms of the education side of things, and you talked about even their understanding of the technology.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

How do you feel like the education spaces from an AI standpoint? Because I I I feel like there's such, you know, disparity in some of the conversations. And I'm sure you probably find yourself in the same rooms where, you know, someone is super gung-ho and they seem to know all the ins and outs of the risk, and and someone is still struggling to turn on their computer.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

Yeah. Um, you know, it's it it's challenging. And I think again, you know, it it depends, like the the type of education that's needed is is needs to be customized for the type of role people are doing um and potentially, you know, that the way they learn or their their appetite for this. Um I will say, you know, it's it's drinking from the fire hose a lot of times. And, you know, where I find the greatest benefit as someone who's very interested in this space and and and has um you know a professional and personal interest um in this piece, um, I've actually I've curated a lot of you know interesting people on LinkedIn. And in over the last four years, it's amazing to see some, you know, people who are maybe a bit more um academic in the space and researchers sharing what they're finding, sharing white papers, those kind of things. And so to me, I um for someone who's very interested in this space, looking for informal ways to connect with people directly working in the space has been so beneficial to me. Um I'm not a technical person, so I but I I don't always understand everything in there, but it's just it's amazing the amount of knowledge and sharing that people who are doing, you know, really incredible things in the space, um, it's it's out there to consume. Um and so I encourage people, if they are interested, you know, finding those informal ways of education. Because I think any kind of like formal AI course, you know, it's it's already like it's a good start, but by the time it makes it makes it into something formal, it it's too late and it's it's moved along again. So to me, I really find, you know, attending seminars, connecting with people on LinkedIn, surprisingly enough, um, is a really great way of kind of keeping keeping abreast and and seeing what's seeing what's out there as it emerges.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

I love it. And I I think that there's so many brilliant people out there that that have so much to share.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

And and I think that if you tap them on the shoulder and say, hey, you know what, I'd I'd love to learn about this, and not with the you know, the secret pitch deck off to the side or the um, you know, I'm sure I'm sure you're no stranger to the hi, nice to meet you. Yeah. Um insert like automated message sequence here.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

But I think general curiosity seems to be the superpower of the future.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

I think so. I think so.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

Um are there any, you know, without giving away your the secret sauce, I get are there any um places that you'd recommend that that are like LinkedIn? I I think is a wealth of knowledge. Yeah. You know, if you can sift through some of the other things, through the high fives and thumbs up, I think you're good to go.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

Those are good too. Those are important too.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

But but even um, you know, you mentioned platform Calgary at the beginning, and I I think, you know, I I think we're both very fortunate to be in the the ecosystem of Calgary.

SPEAKER_02 33:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

Which really seems to be um exploding in a really positive way around some of the work that's been done, not just in AI, but in terms of that ecosystem and kind of elevating everyone up.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Yeah, yeah. Um Amy's another great one um out of Edmonton or uh Vector uh in in Toronto or two organizations that I've I've worked with um before. And again, you know, I think especially if you're coming from a uh a business background, you know, a lot of the emerging conversations are are very technical, but it's it's worth putting yourself in that space and trying to kind of glean as much as you can and and and bring that business lens. Because I think that is that is one of the challenges is kind of going forward, is is bridging the two, bridging the technology and the the business together. And that's that's where you know potentially people like me, people such as yourself can can can help there. And I think there's there's lots of room in that space um for to make those connections and to make it really useful.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

And are you finding that there's more of a general interest in technology? And the the reason I'm asking is like I feel like there used to be this um, you know, I take care of finance, I take care of operations, I take care of um you know, widget B and C and D. Yeah. And then here's our technology team over here.

SPEAKER_02 34:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

And, you know, I think that it at least from my perspective, it seems to be bleeding over where I I don't think you can be a CFO without understanding these things. I don't think you can be a COO.

SPEAKER_02 34:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

Are are you you finding that desire to just have technology be part of all business operations really starting to creep in?

Career Advice For A Changing World

SPEAKER_01 35:02

You know, I I I I'm not sure about desire, but I think it's it's a necessity. Um, and I think you know that is something that I I was exposed to and identified pretty early on because I was working in corporate strategy and somehow found myself in this you know data regulatory change project, and nobody could figure out why I had come and was work and was working on this. But, you know, now and at the time it didn't truly make sense, but now, you know, hindsight 2020, 15 years later, I'm like that made absolutely perfect sense. That was pivotal in terms of you know the technology, it's not, it can't be standalone. In order to for it to actually be useful to to the business, it's gotta be infused across the organization. So there's there's the the opportunity, I think, on both sides to kind of for for people from outside of technology to to get a little bit more educated and around you know how it can benefit them, but also from a tech a technology standpoint to to figure out a little bit more about the business um and how what they're doing applies. So it's it's just working cross-functionally that that is beneficial to everyone, I think. There's there's there's a lot of give and take.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

So as you were building your career, and this is a tiny bit of a pivot, but as you were building your career, did did you see the kind of the end in mind? Like did you have this really um strategic aspiration that says, you know, you know, I'm gonna see how the dots all connect? Or were you were you more kind of go with the flow and just see where the world takes you here?

SPEAKER_01 36:33

Um probably externally, like people looking in, it looked a little bit more go with the flow, but I think, you know, naturally I I use a risk management lens to look for opportunities. So I absolutely reached out for um opportunities that may not have been like within the linear path of a risk manager who then went into strategy, who's now you know, in a tech piece. But absolutely, you know, it was I I identified skills that I I needed and I knew that like the technology and the data piece. So I didn't know, you know, exactly taking this project will mean that you know I'm doing technology consulting and AI in 15 years. But I knew that there were components and skill sets that I needed to collect in order to have more options for myself.

SPEAKER_00 37:28

If if you were giving advice to uh young or younger um Zoe, um what what words of wisdom would you give yourself as you're kind of starting on that journey?

SPEAKER_01 37:39

You know, I think I I think the biggest thing is is being curious and putting your hands up for things. I think particularly if you're working in in corporate, um, nobody's gonna map out, you know, a a nonlinear, more interesting path. So you kind of have to look inside yourself, see what you're interested in, um, and and maybe look a little bit broader in terms of you know how what other skill sets you can gain. I spent a lot of my 20s um working for different companies, working in different areas, potentially ones that, you know, weren't my area of expertise at the time. So sometimes it felt not great, you know, but but a a lot of it was was learning and it's all it's all kind of come together now in my in my advanced, in my elder millennial age, um, to to to have a really kind of broad, good, good base of experience that could that's that's opened up a lot of opportunities for myself.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

I love it. And so and I know you have uh like we'll say adolescent children. And so, you know, they're not quite at the spot where they're they're picking their major quite yet.

SPEAKER_02 38:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

But if you were to start thinking about advice, you know, for what work turns into, right? Because I think there's this really interesting crossroads that's gonna start to happen. Yeah. And I like we I know we talked about it earlier, there's a little there's a lot of doomsayers, but I think there's also an incredible amount of opportunity for for what work and life can look like in the future. You know, what words of wisdom will would you give them and maybe in a couple years as they're as they're embarking on kind of figuring out what they're doing?

SPEAKER_01 39:13

Well, as a mother of an 11 and 13 year old, I have obviously no wisdom at all, according to my children. Um no, just joking. Um I think usually joking, not joking. Yes. I think, you know, a lot of it is is the curiosity and being open to new experiences. So I think, you know, what what the world of work is going to look like um for for my for my children is is going to be probably very different than than I could even imagine sitting here. So again, like being a super learner, having curiosity, having bravery to kind of try something new and and see where see where things go, I think are are are very beneficial skill sets. And anything that's kind of centered around the human and what makes us you know uniquely human, I think will will still be of of benefit, um, benefit there. Because I think like a lot of the scientific pieces and a lot of the you know mass calculation, all those kind of stuff, we have to say Sayanara to those kind of things. But you know, you know, human creativity, um, human relationship building is is still going to be important. Um and so it's it's finding those kind of building blocks and what the final look of all those building blocks is gonna be, I don't know. But um just make sure you've got lots of different different types of blocks so you're ready for for whatever the future brings.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

A buffet of different blocks to plug in. Or the I feel like I need to bring it back to an elephant analogy here somehow.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

Oh man. I don't know. I don't know. Pin the t no, I have no idea.

Consulting In Legacy Industries

SPEAKER_00 40:55

Well, think about uh my only elephant one that I have is well, you know, um the elephant looks I I'm probably gonna butcher it. You know what the elephant looks different depending on the view. Yes. I'm re I'm I'm not I'm annihilating this analogy, so who sorry to whoever came up with that. Um you've done some incredible work throughout your your career, um, and you're you're offering that through your your consulting practice. I think consulting is is something that is um changing, you know, if you think about the influence of AI and things like changing at the speed of light right now as well. And there's an incredible advantage to being kind of a small nimble firm. Well, you know, can you tell me a little bit about the work that you're doing with your strategy and innovation firm and kind of what you what you've embarked on?

SPEAKER_01 41:37

Yeah, so I'm uh I'm a solo practitioner at this point, so which kind of lets me um have ultimate nimbleness. I don't know why I had to think about that for a second, what that word was. Um and you know, to me, what the the different the differentiating factor for me is that you know, I'm working with organizations that that I have deep knowledge in. So I worked in um banks and insurance companies um and and the like for for the last 20 years. So the difference between me and potent maybe potentially some some other consulting organizations that like I understand where the people that I'm working with are, where they've been, the kind of things that they have to worry about. Um, and particularly in working in legacy organizations, I'm not gonna come in and say, yes, you know, everything's fine, just get an API, plug it in, and there you go. You're a digital organization. I I I truly understand the the space that that people are working in. And I think, you know, that kind of work in consulting is still very valuable and is still a a key thing that that that we can offer there is is the the personalized human level of understanding um of of what what my clients are going through.

SPEAKER_00 42:56

I I couldn't agree more. We we phrase it as, you know, that I think for better or for worse gone are the days of the intern with the playbook.

SPEAKER_02 43:02

Yeah.

Policy Guardrails In Gray Areas

SPEAKER_00 43:02

And and people want an expert beside them. They want someone that's had the um things that have gone really well, the things that have gone horribly where they've fallen on their face, and all the experiences that come along with those. It it keeps it exciting. So I'm gonna end with our most exciting topic, um, which is um oh my goodness. Um policy. Yes. So I know everyone loves policy. Yes. And so I think, especially in the industries that you're working in, um, there's a lot of regulation. Yeah, there's a lot of different oversight. If we think about you know more rigid environments like that, and then we think about the policy landscape, I feel like those two things aren't necessarily meshing up, especially when it comes to the speed that technology is happening right now. What are some of the things, like maybe some of the key observations that you have as you're helping customers navigate, you know, a regulated environment? Of government or policy oversight.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

Um as they're trying to move quickly to create value for their customers.

SPEAKER_01 44:08

Wow. That is big question at the end. You know, okay. Um, so let me think about that. So I think again, it's it's coming. I I'm a very practical person when it comes to policy, particularly if you know it's not something that's that's regulated. So to me, again, and I've been banging on about this this entire thing, it's it's taking a look at at what the issues are and what what you're trying to use policy to guard against. So do you need a policy for absolutely everything if it's not required? No. Do you need to do the right thing? Yes. Do you need to operate in a way that is as safe as possible while also letting you do what you're supposed to be doing? Yes. So it's all about figuring out, defining what the problem is, breaking it down, figuring out what needs to be covered off by policy, what you can and can't do, and going from there. You know, I think we can't wait around for, you know, policy and regulation to exist. It's going to take too long and it's going to be possibly wrong and behind when we go. Possibly, when, when, when we go there. But again, it's it's operating in an environment that you know makes that is transparent and that makes sense for your organization and and is focused on doing the right thing. Um and I think to me, having those guardrails and having those guide guidelines, that's kind of where you need to work in in some of that where there's policy ambiguity.

SPEAKER_00 45:47

I love it. I feel like you and I could continue this conversation for 73 years. Um it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on the show, Zoe. Any any final words, any kind of thoughts that you wanted to share with our listeners before we wrap up?

Where To Connect And Closing

SPEAKER_01 46:00

No, I think that's I think that's great. Thank you so much. Yes, I think so.

SPEAKER_00 46:04

If if people wanted to connect with you, if they wanted to learn more, if they wanted to see your newly revamped uh website and brand. Not yet, not yet.

SPEAKER_01 46:13

Soon, um, probably the best way to connect with me is is on LinkedIn. Um, I do spend probably too much time on there. Um, but there's yeah, there's so many great little treasure troves of of people and community there. So uh it's it's it's not all bad. But yeah, Zoe Harrison uh in Calgary Harrison Strategy and Innovation.

SPEAKER_00 46:32

Amazing. Thank you so much for coming on the show and uh hope to have you back soon.

SPEAKER_01 46:36

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 46:37

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