Opening & Guest Intros

SPEAKER_00 0:00

And so it's moving this uh moving away from this idea that our workplaces are something or things are to be fixed. Always to we have the problem, solution, problem, solution. It's cause it's just not linear like that anymore.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

Welcome to another episode of Sell Me This Podcast. On this episode, we have Megan and Alicia from Pebble, and we dive into a conversation around the new world of leadership and how technology is impacting teams all across the province. Enjoy. Welcome to another episode of Sell Me This Podcast. Today I am incredibly excited to have with me uh Alicia and Megan. Um I feel like we've been talking about uh having this conversation for a long time. And I feel like also any time we get together, we probably talk for like four hours. Um I've been looking forward to this chat, and we're gonna dive right into things. Um why don't you both introduce yourselves, tell us a little bit about who you are and and what you're up to these days?

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Me first. Okay, well hi, I'm Megan Donahoe. Um, and I I'm a Calgary like original.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

One of the few.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Yeah, grew up in Calgary. Um, and um I'm kind of a nerd. I think it was something that I was trying to not embrace for a long time, and I've just now started to embrace how nerdy I am because I love um I love reading about and talking about leadership, and I I thought that was normal. And someone recently said to me, like, do you read this and listen to these things for fun? And I was like, Yeah, don't don't you and and um uh they said no. So I'm now so there you go. So yeah, that's that's me. I'm my background is in industrial organizational psychology, and I'm currently um right at the near end of finishing a PhD uh on the topic of leadership, uh well-being, and stress.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

And I think near end is an understatement. Like I feel like you're in your last week, alright?

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Yes, like the last week, yes. So you don't have to call a doctor. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

Well, I already I feel like I already do or should.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

No, hasn't been earned yet.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

Yeah, almost.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Almost.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

Um thankfully I will do it, we're doing it right before we'll have to record a more formal episode uh in a week and a half.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Yeah, good point. Dr. Donovan. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Um and I'm Alicia White, so I'm the second, the other half of Pebble. Um, together we have a company where we're reimagining leadership, and that's both of that's that's how we got together and have so much fun working together, is that we like to rethink things. So my background is working corporate HR for 20 years. Um, and I did my certificate in executive coaching and just thought there was maybe something different out there, and then uh Megan and I got together and we spend all of our time sort of rethinking and and it has it was a bit of an eye-opener that other people don't like to talk about leadership as much as we do because we enjoy it so much.

SPEAKER_02 2:44

Well, and and I I feel it the same way on the technology side of things. And if you look at my you know Spotify listing history and my audible book history, I feel like it's all different like tech books, and um, you know, I I feel like maybe that we're kind of from the same cloth, but maybe it's a tiny different subject matter experts on on different things. Um I want to jump right into things.

Why Leadership Needs A Rethink

SPEAKER_02 3:04

Like what needs to be rethought about leadership?

SPEAKER_01 3:06

Like we're gonna start out, we're gonna start off with a light to light one. I mean the thing that jumps out most to me is that if you ask people who they think about with leadership, you hear uh, and and there's no shade on any of these people, but uh John Maxwell, uh Patricioni, um Jim Collins, Jim Collins, good to great. Uh so you know there are some similarities between all of those people if you were to look at pictures of them. Um and it may not be the most representative of um gender, but also just of the world. And so I think that there's this whole other lens to look at leadership that hasn't hasn't been mainstream for so long.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

I was also thinking about the the metaphor that we often use, which is a pebble, which is also our company name, um, to I think in that case to reimagine what we think leadership could be and um does, you know, that we see also in workplaces, which is um a pebble and all the things that a pebble can do. And and I'm sure there's lots of ideas that that you have that other people listening have. Um but a pebble uh is so versatile, right? It can skip across the water or it can go uh sink to the bottom. Um when you hold it in your hand, it gets warm, but then when you leave it on the sidewalk, it's cold. Um pebbles are often found together, so they're collective in in their like existence, and then they're shaped by the environment around them. So they have you know this this firm core. Um so that would be like that firm core of beliefs for leaders, but also this openness to be malleable to the to the people and the things and the experiences around you. And there's probably more, I don't know, what are the other ones?

SPEAKER_01 4:48

The ripples. You did very good, yes. I think I yes, I think initially we thought so much about the ripples that leaders have, and then we sort of backtracked into Pebble, which then has has opened so much to us. Um it's interesting. I'm married to a geologist, and so when we were debating our company name, uh, and I asked, you know, what do you think of Pebble? And and what I got back was like a love letter to rocks. This is amazing. That's that should be the tagline on your website, isn't it? A love letter to pebbles. Yeah, so you know, I think that we really could talk all day about what needs to be rethought. The last thing I would add, um, moving away from the Pebble analogy though, is just this idea of like this grit and grind and busyness that seems to be taking all space away. And this is what we need for how complex the world is. We need space to be wise, and so that's something that we believe really deeply in is holding space for people.

SPEAKER_02 5:41

Well, and and I I love that you're saying that, and um, I don't profess to be anywhere um near the expert that either of the two of you are on this topic, but I know what a conversation that we've had, you know, a few times is this uh this culture of this hustle and grind and um you know work as hard and as many hours as you can. And I if you look back at um kind of the in industrial side of things and kind of what that created and just trying to find more and more ways to um I didn't intentionally create a rock metaphor here, but you know, squeeze squeeze blood from a stone a little bit. Um I I feel like we're reaching the upper limits of what what that's creating. It's starting to have some of those diminishing returns. Are are you two seeing the same things?

SPEAKER_00 6:23

Uh yeah, I mean I think people leaders are exhausted. They're um they're really overwhelmed, and we have um so much empathy for leaders. Both of us have been leaders in our in our careers, and uh it's not an easy job. And I think there's so much, I mean, there's the the job description of a leader, the one you apply to if you're looking to become a leader, and then there's like the the immense huge bag of all these other things that are expected of leaders that are often unseen or untalked about in terms of their roles. So, like we heard from a group the other week, it's like therapist and uh police officer and um you know coach and mentor and cheerleader and all of these other roles that leaders play.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

And so I think I think they are exhausted, and that leaves out all that happens then outside and their life at work, right? And we all come to work with this whole other context of who we are, and I think um you know when you add all of that in on top of all these things that we see leaders juggling, it it is, it feels really quite untenable.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

Well, and and that's a lot of the like traditional um leadership coaching says that the you know the uh the separation of work and self is a really important concept. Um you know, I I don't agree with it, but I uh I think that a lot of common literature, especially if you go

The Pebble Metaphor & Ripples

SPEAKER_02 7:48

back, would have said, hey, you know what, like you have your per personal life and you have your work life. Are you starting to see that changed? And it sounds like you're advocating for not that in the slightest as well.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

I I mean I think what we see is that people have to figure out what works for them. And so for some people, a really high integration of work and life. And you know, I have a friend who has a very busy job and has two young kids, and what they find is that they like to be done at three when the kids are done. But then they will go back and do some work uh at eight o'clock at night, and that works for them. That's you know, that's something that right now they're quite comfortable with that. And so I think it's it's just this recognition that we all have different pieces that we're trying to figure out, and um, what works well for me might not work for others, and the reality of life bleeding in, you know, you just you just can't you don't you never know when the phone is going to ring and something's going to be is is going to require your attention.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

It it makes me think of you know one of the other myths or beliefs that we often encounter around leadership is that there's just one right way to lead. And um, I think that's what we're discovering more and more is that it's for each individual leader, it looks a little bit different. And so how they show up in the workplace, but also the journey they take and the way they approach their teams is gonna be a little bit different than everybody else, which is what makes it hard then to support a whole group of leaders, you know, in developing their leadership, is that then you know that every single person in that room is gonna be on a slightly different path.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

So, how do you help someone discover that then if it's so individual? Like what does that process to that realization look like?

SPEAKER_01 9:28

It's also different for everyone, but I think so. I'll go back, I'll go back to that first thing, this idea of around space, though, right? And so I think that um being able to have some space, to have conversations, to to hear we talk about colliding perspectives, right? I think there's this really um, you know, interesting moment when people realize what they believe to be an absolute or a fundamental truth isn't for someone else. And that can start a whole path. We we do this lovely activity with beliefs where we have people sort of step this, you know, do you strongly believe in this? We'll we'll state beliefs out loud or strongly disagree. And in a group of room, we'll see people move in different spaces, and it's always so eye-opening for people to go, oh wow, this for me I thought was just what good leadership is. This is a definition in my mind, but someone else doesn't believe it to be true at all. So I think sometimes just opening up this space for for a whole different way of looking at things helps.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

Yeah. So examples of beliefs might be um, you know, a leader is responsible for, you know, protecting their team. Or uh we, you know, a leader must hold people accountable. And so these are all like just a whole bunch of statements about leadership, right? Or leaders a leader is born, not made, right? Or le leadership and management are not the same thing or are the same thing. And so these are all these are all just beliefs around what we we think is true or not true about leadership. And I think the cool thing that we've started to uh unlock is just how many different beliefs exist out there when it comes to leadership.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

So you two seem to have a superpower for creating these experiences that I think bring that that out of people, right? And so I I've been fortunate to be at a couple of sessions that you've you've held, and I know that even one of our pitch nights, um, you know, you you had a really interesting um you know part right in the middle of the day. And how do you come up with these things? And like how how are you creating these experiences? Because I think that there's something really special and unique about the way that you're bringing people together and the conversations that you're forcing them to have that I think helps them unlock something in a way that they haven't before without being too flattering. But it is very different.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Yeah, we appreciate that. I think one of our learnings, and so both Megan and I did work within organizations for so long, and we would spend uh I mean so much time uh thinking

Rejecting Hustle Culture

SPEAKER_01 11:55

about the content and how we can get exactly the right thing for people to learn, and they would always leave and say um what they love most is the connection. And so I think when we have our own company and we're making experiences for people, we start with that. That we know there is so much content, and content's important, and we can curate interesting content, but creating that space for people to connect is where they really feel strength, and and we know even and Megan, you can speak more to some of your research when it's but just this idea that um connection leaders need connection in their life, and so often it's what gets put aside, and so when we go in, we often think how do we help people connect, and help people even with um the conversations to have. So it's not about the weather, or it's not about uh I mean, uh whatever other sort of what neighborhood you live in, or you know.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

What else is there to talk about? I feel like we got weather, neighborhood, and um flames roilers, and I think we've got the conversation kind of.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

Yeah, yeah. So I I mean I think that's that's the thing. And I also think Megan and I um come at it very different. So Megan uh has a lot of gets a lot of energy from a room of people, is very extroverted, uh, whereas I'm more likely to be having a one-on-one conversation with someone. So I think that dual lens allows us to think of questions and activities that supports both those people in the room.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Yes. I'm trying to think what else to add.

SPEAKER_02 13:22

That's what we don't and you don't you don't feel you don't you don't have to double.

SPEAKER_00 13:25

I one thing I would add too is this um what has really impacted um our thinking is lots of different thinkers out there that I think end up getting woven into all the things that we do, and so this certainly I mean we don't do it alone, which is why we love being together, and then we get lots of different inspiration from others. And one that's coming to mind right now when it when we think about events is the art of gathering, Priya Parker. And I think what I w what really sticks out for what she talks about is just being really intentional about why you're gathering in the first place, and I think um that is a bit of the bone to pick that we have with a lot of these conferences is people you know create these gatherings, and and people have taken um a lot of uh time and effort to clear their calendars so they can show up and be part of this event, and then they sit there and listen the whole day and often just get content after content through a fire hose. And I think and and really though, what we know is people walk away going, you know, it was it was for the networking, it was for the connecting, it was for the the relationships I make today so that I can do different things tomorrow, but nobody has an opportunity to do that, it's fit-in between breaks and networking events where people maybe are using those to catch up on emails and meetings.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

We also know, sorry, the the piece I love about this too is that to take something away, right? How many times do you see people take pictures of slides and you know all this content and they never look at it again? Whereas if you've had a conversation with someone about it and had some of that reflection, all of a sudden that's going to create some learning that that sticks for you. So there's also some really neat learning principles in there that that we love.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

So we're really just advocating for this idea that that learning and leadership development, um, the future of it is not content, it's connection.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

Yeah, well, and I think that that's what people are craving right now. We just you know uh in a way a little bit of collision in the studio as we were um, you know, someone was coming out and coming in, but we had Philip Burns from Tech Thursday right before this, and um, you know, we talked a lot about the idea of these events as really uh meaningful spaces, but but also just the the saturation of events, you know, and in our ecosystem right now, you you could walk out the door and probably attend five events tonight and and probably have five more that you could still go to.

SPEAKER_03 15:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:45

And but they're to your point, you know, they're they're not necessarily thought out in the way of what uh what are people walking away with. And I think that folks that can find out how to harness that experience and and the way to people to get something out of it versus just have a bunch of people pay for a speaking spot.

SPEAKER_03 16:03

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 16:05

We'll be onto something because I think people are starting to wise up to their where their time's going.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

It's true. And I think I mean some of this comes from our learning design backgrounds too, where I mean the first thing you always do when you design learning is you think about well, what do you want people to walk away with?

SPEAKER_03 16:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Like what is what is the what are

One Right Way To Lead? No

SPEAKER_00 16:23

those core things um that you want people to walk away with? And I think even sometimes we get um overwhelmed with the content we could provide to people because there's so much great stuff out there, and we always have to sometimes we'll find ourselves even having to center back to okay, and what is the most important thing that people need to walk away with in this moment? Um, because and leaving space for the fact that they're also gonna make a decision about what they want to walk away with, and so you have to be able to balance both.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

Well, and if I'm starting to pick up on a trend as well, it's the idea of leaving space. Um so is that one of the big challenges with I don't want to say society right now because that'll probably become a a whole other podcast episode, but but do people just not not have enough space today?

SPEAKER_01 17:05

I mean, I I don't think so. I you know, and and and I look back even, you know, when I was working in a corporate role and I was doing my certificate in executive coaching, I had two small kids, a new dog for I don't know what reason we thought that was a good idea at the time. And my calendar from 6 a.m. until you know was scheduled probably from 6 a.m. almost till 7 p.m. And then once the kids went to bed, I would watch a show with my partner while doing email and then I would wake up and do the same thing again. And there wasn't there wasn't space, and I remember I had a a coach and she's like, you know, can you just capture 30 minutes at the beginning of every day so that you can have some intention around what you're doing? And as we get busier in what we're doing, this is a conversation we have with each other. We we had it today around wow, it's been a bit busy. I mean, Megan is working really hard to finish her PhD, and we have some clients where we're finishing work for them, and it it hasn't felt as spacious. And so, how you know, how do we create that for ourselves and how do we remind ourselves of the importance of being really intentional about uh our it's our energy more than our time, it's your energy, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:13

So yeah, it makes me think about um there's a video, I think it's Trevor Maber, and he talks about it's a really quick little animation short, and he talks about how unusual it was way back in the 50s for people to go for a run. And if you were outside going for a run, people would be like, Who's chasing you? Are you endangered? Right, and then now it's very normal to see people like exercise has become part of something we know to be important for for a healthy, a healthy physical body, and then in his video he's advocating for like a healthy um mind and sort of these kind of how do you build and exercise your mind? And I think space is another piece of it, is that today it feels strange, you almost have to schedule it, or the language even around you deserve a break. This right, and and it's so normal to us that we we work really hard and then we would deserve a break, versus a break being part of um what it means to be a healthy human and and having some space and and and breathing in those things. So I think there's part of that is I I can't wait for the day when this when space is just something that is what people do, it's built in um to part of what you do, and I think I'm discovering that right now because my my time, I'm in a very busy season. Um, and so you know, we've got a a company that's doing lots of work, and then I've got a family and and young children, and then I also have this this PhD um with a looming deadline on me, and so I've had to um discover time boxing where I essentially will dedicate time um to all these different things, which allows me to be very present. So I can say, like tomorrow I'm working on my PhD from nine until five, and I know that the next day I have time to focus on client work, so then I can really be present and focused. But the one thing I had not time

Designing Conversations That Unlock Beliefs

SPEAKER_00 20:04

boxed for was space for myself. And no point. And so I was starting to feel it. I could tell that, you know, I didn't I hadn't created any space for me to just sit down and have a cup of coffee. It was literally me pouring it and then walking downstairs and sitting in front of my computer. Or you know, moving between work being done and then having to be there for the kids. And so I, you know, I've had to reset my thinking around well where where do I box in the space right now? Because it's not natural yet for me. I actually have to plan it.

SPEAKER_02 20:35

Well and and I think you know there's a one of my favorite books is called Thank You for Being Late by Thomas Friedman.

SPEAKER_03 20:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

And you know he the the book starts off it sounds like you both read it with someone being late for a lunch and and instead of being angry and looking down at his phone, he's like, you know, I'm just gonna take 15 minutes and just sit here. And and essentially with him being grateful for that space because everything's go go go. And you know I I was reading something the other day where if you go back into like surf days, um they actually only worked an average of like a third of the year. It's it's it seems like um you know how much how much better are the conditions today. But if you look for a majority of history people aren't wired to be as go go go the way that we are today and so we're we're really burning the candle on multiple ends.

SPEAKER_03 21:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

And it it's fascinating when you start to think about like the human physiology just once again you're you're probably both much more experts at this than I am but the human physiology that we're not built to operate like this.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

Yeah we're not machines. Well and and it kind of goes back to what you were saying earlier about scientific management right this very industrial mindset. And I mean the guy who wrote the book on it was Frederick Taylor. I think he was quite young. Like he was in his 20s when he wrote the book. And I've I've read the book it's a little one and he had gone in and he had done all of these um tests with factory workers where he was measuring like how much can they how how much can they dedicate and then how much rest do they need in order to be able to do it again. And so it was this idea of like you do it, you rest for a little bit and then you keep doing it and he was trying to get to the point where what is the most efficient way to work these humans was essentially what he was doing, which feels awful. And then he wrote this this big thing and it was so efficient. But then of course what wasn't included in his book is that after he'd left these factories there was like um revolts like there were strikes right people were like I'm not doing this it doesn't work for me right and so but but it's just what caught on it's it ends up being what we ended up using as a mental model when we were working people was you know how can we get the most efficiency out of a person how much rest do they need right so we got the eight hours of sleep eight eight hours of play the eight hours of work and we've kind of just continued along some of these this thinking even though it's starting to evolve but yeah there's just we need more space in our in our time.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

And I think sometimes people mistake space for time and it's not it's not necessarily the same thing. It it can be and we've talked actually we find you quite spacious to be around. So there's people in your life where you can be on it can be on a call you can be meeting them for coffee and it feels really spacious. So you actually almost feel more energized and you felt like you had some time to think and and really enjoy the conversation and then there's other people where it feels really unspacious right and they have maybe a frenetic energy or sort of how they're approaching it feels really like for me it feels like it's closing in. And and so just this recognition I think too is um when things feel spacious and when they don't because it's not necessarily just time. I think time can help but it's not the it's not the only factor.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

It's the feeling that's like with the feeling when you get when you stand on a beach or you stand in the mountains and you feel this sense of spaciousness. I think in that same same way that's how what Alicia's talking about too I love that descriptor and I I won't be offended that you've called me spacious. It's a good it's a good it's a very good compliment yeah it's amongst our highest compliments realistically it's true. And I mean it's interesting because I think um sometimes when we offer people an invitation to step into spaciousness um it looks like sitting in a conversation about something that may feel uncomfortable at first that's spaciousness. And what we often find is we we will any groups that we work with at the very beginning we always ask them you know how are you feeling coming into this? Like what are you thinking feeling and we often see people saying you know I feel busy I'm tired I'm excited I'm you know overwhelmed and then we ask them the same question at the very end that in the time we spent with them and we often will see a shift in how people are feeling especially when we have sessions where there's lots of conversation

Connection Over Content In Learning

SPEAKER_00 24:45

where people then go away feeling like I just feel supported relaxed connected and it's just it's so cool to see this happened across many many groups in multiple different contexts where we see this same trend where when people just take a moment to tune in with the other person at first it feels hard right people are kind of groan like oh I have to do this but then they get into it and they it's almost like one of those things you didn't realize you were missing it until until you were experiencing it again.

SPEAKER_02 25:15

That makes a lot of sense and so it's not even just like this isn't months and months of work and months and like this is in a an afternoon you have a group of people together and they come in feeling one way and they they walk out feeling a completely different way.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

Yes yeah and and and often it's that they've had a chance for connection. You know they might have had a bit of content that they're playing with too and and you know what we hope is that people leave that then recognizing it's something they can do. Right that they can create this space where they actually feel better within three hours by having some time to connect with someone or or talking through a challenge they're having and and so that there are some really simple ways to to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

Yeah well and I I can't imagine that there's a better time for the work that the two of you are doing than right now. You know if I think about your example of the the work designed for a factory worker and optimal performance when we think about the work role of technology and more specifically the role that AI is starting to have in terms of augmenting the way people are working, you know, the the traditional mindset of okay input equals output doesn't exist today and it definitely won't exist in the near future. And and so like what are some of the trends that you're seeing in terms of what organizations need from a leadership perspective with this new AI world because like the the I have to imagine the role of leaders drastically changes when you're not saying you know how many um coffee bugs can you make in an hour.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

Yeah we we often talk with leaders about you know their problems if they were simple they would have solved them right and so chances are and and and we talk a lot about complexity in in the work that we do and that we're all navigating a far more complex world and then with that you need wisdom and wisdom comes not with more meetings or uh more things but with wisdom with space. Yeah so um so I think that's one of the things that we really do see is that it's not simple. There's not best practices don't apply. It's you have to be really um emergent in what you're doing and you have to be good with experimentation and it also means you have to be good with um things not going okay and working through that and that and that can be really hard when people really want to be great at what they do.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Yeah it's this it's this we often see leaders saying well I have this this problem and here's the the you know the causes and and then we just need to figure out what the solution is and then we'll be good to go and um not only is it a complex problem but sometimes it doesn't have a solution and I think that's where it's really uncomfortable for leaders to say um it might be that the solution you're driving for is not the right one maybe it is maybe you have one you could fix something tomorrow but it might then change so much in a month from now that it wasn't actually it's not a solution anymore. And so it's moving this a moving away from this idea that our workplaces are something or things are to be fixed. Always to we have the problem solution problem solution it's because it's just not linear like that anymore which I think is just a return to being human. It's being part of like life is not linear like you know and like nature doesn't work in linear ways. And so I think that would be is how do you how do you look at the workplace with that lens in mind and I I think the trouble we're gonna experience is that we are taking technology and we are applying it to our current way of thinking about the workplace and and trying to plug it in to that way of doing it which is maybe not going to help at all.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

And and if we look at kind of cause and causation you know I and I remember at the front end of COVID there was this very brief moment of time when everyone had moved home and transitioned to video calls. And all of a sudden we had this space where you no longer had to spend an hour commuting you no longer had to spend half an hour driving between meetings you um all of a sudden there there was a very brief moment where space was created at the front end of COVID and I think that there was this sense of relief that people felt um and I without like this is obviously a very small bubble of relief. Yes from a work perspective when there was that created and then I then I think what happened is everyone said like holy shit like there's some space we can fill in here.

SPEAKER_04 29:50

Right.

SPEAKER_02 29:51

And and then like you saw the okay how many Teams meetings can I sausage into one day. And and because I don't remember before that having eighteen meetings in a day. Like that would have been unheard of pre-COVID.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

Yeah well because you couldn't travel from one meeting to the next to the next to the next in quick succession like you could on there and I I uh yes exactly and so we essentially adopted a new technology forced by what was going on in the pandemic

Space As A Leadership Practice

SPEAKER_00 30:18

um with the same mindset of how we were thinking about work which was you know not seeing space or time in our day to reflect as being an important habit of you know working through something difficult. And so not only is the world becoming more and more complex but then um the tools we're using is also taking up more and more of our time and we're using the same mental models that we did when we were in a simpler workplace but in a more complex workplace it's not it's not working.

SPEAKER_02 30:47

And so I'm really curious to see what happens with AI now where AI obviously augments some work and you can see it's changing some jobs it's making some things obsolete it's making some things more important. But as you start if you start to use traditional mental and leadership models to apply those same rubrics to the way that people things have always been done I I see it as a potential to make things way worse versus way better.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Yeah and I mean I'm probably you've probably seen this in the spaces where you bring some expertise and you know we've had we had someone recently sort of looking at you know a competency model through uh an AI lens and it was a brilliant conversation because we could immediately say yes if you were to look at research over the last 20 years it's done a good job of summarizing that and we know here's where things fall down or here's where it doesn't work. And so while it can look and I mean we had someone else talk about you know someone submitting like a 20 page competency model it's like yeah AI can build that for you but they're not going to they can't build people actually using it and trying it on and and being adaptable and going okay this isn't what what's working or this is what's working. So you know I think it sometimes that like that so close to expert right it feels people like oh look what look to da look this is amazing without recognizing how much uh the human experience is part of implementing these things.

SPEAKER_02 32:17

Definitely What skills do you think leaders need right now more than anything as they're entering this new digital world?

SPEAKER_00 32:25

And a new digital world is probably the understatement The internet is now out well I almost wonder if it's the like we have our mind we have some mindsets and so we've kind of we've shifted away from the idea of skills and um and knowledge. Those are important and they they are basically the application of it but it's more about how you're looking the lens that you're looking at your workplace and your team and your leadership with and so um we've tried to make it super easy but it's essentially like relearning leadership. It's the A B C Ds with an S at the end. We're you know you're trying to get the accuracy you're trying to figure it out exactly yeah and so and so the shift so those it to remember them it's it can be easy with the ABCDs and so the first mindset would be this shifting from um scarcity and seeing things as in like in order to do this I have to I have to limit or I have to remove things or I just have to do it myself so that I can move forward quickly towards abundance thinking and that would be I think um something you probably use a lot in your work because technology does offer you abundance right it offers you an abundance of access to other perspectives and you know different collectives of people and so how do we help leaders see that as you know the way forward is not you know holding up like which can be really tempting when things are hard or there's lots of uncertainty people just kind of um they burrow into their own areas and instead of burrowing and seeing it as like scarce um you open up in abundance you you go out and you start talking to people and you bring in different voices and and different ways of thinking about things.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

Yeah and so that becomes sharing success right so abundance is about sharing success and then it goes into a both and mindset and so it's this idea of both both can be true so often and particularly when I'm coaching leaders they can get really stuck in this it's either this or this and it feels sort of like this fatalistic decision. And so being able to recognize that both can be true and it also allows you to recognize that there are multiple truths and really being able to lean into that and have that lens often takes a lot of the pressure off the right answer or problem solution. It's this this ability to see both these things can be true and I can I can work through them and hold sort of what what may sometimes feel like opposites together.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

So I like I love it when leaders ask questions like you know what if we could do both of these things or what if we start we tried this and and uh and this and so I think that that creates even that introduces some playfulness to the workplace and a little bit of experimentation. Then the third one the C is to cultivate and so this is really around how are you growing your people and how are you you know looking at everything as an opportunity for growth and um and learning. And so this would be also where experimentation can fit in where it's like we're just we're gonna try something new. We're gonna see if maybe there's an opportunity to learn something here and then we can swiftly move to learn something else and learn something else. That's cultivating the people around you.

SPEAKER_01 35:29

Yeah and so growing people and I think it moves from this idea of your legacy being the things you did to the the people that that you worked with and sort of grew is is the idea behind that. So it's a bit of a rethinking of legacy. We get to D is dynamic. So this is really about how we see uh change how we see the world as possibilities and and I think so often we work with leaders and there's such a like there's so much language around change as being sort of something you uh injure. You just sort of push it happens to you and whereas we really want to see it as this space of possibility and so you know we think this dynamic mindset where people are looking at change

Time Boxing And Protecting Energy

SPEAKER_01 36:12

with a lens of look what this might unlock or look at the opportunity that this is bringing is is going to be a really important lens in the future.

SPEAKER_00 36:19

And then and when the adaptability and flexibility of being dynamic we know we we I think we hear a lot where people are like we're gonna do our strap planning. It's gonna be five years and here's what we're gonna do and then and then they move into it and things different things happen and you have to to change and I it's this idea of you know not just holding these things lightly a little bit more lightly than maybe we normally would I remember there was um it was actually in the middle of the pandemic I was leading a team within an organization and we were doing all of these like amazing initiatives and everybody was also feeling exhausted so both were true. We were doing great work everybody was exhausted and so we had a moment where we paused and looked at you know here are all the the projects we're working on all the initiatives all the programs and I challenged the team to think about well what would what would it look like if we just cut this in half? If we only did half of this and we can experiment with this for like one or two months. Let's just try it. And I remember even as I was saying it I felt a little sick I was like what am I gonna get fired? I was like what's gonna happen if we just stop doing half the stuff that we're doing and so as a team we went through and we said okay well here's the things we think we can put on hold or pause. And it was really hard to let some of that go because some of it was work we loved. We really enjoyed doing it it had been something we'd created for the organization and we felt it was important. But we did it we we paused half the things and then we just focused on the other half. And after a couple months nothing happened like no nothing changed. People weren't asking us for the things we'd stopped doing. We were feeling better so that had changed we were feeling like it was less of a load and in fact some people even had stopped me you know when they would come across in meetings and stuff saying your team is doing amazing work. And so how funny that in our minds we felt like all of these things was what amazing work was when in fact we discovered that just pausing and being a little bit more flexible in how we were doing things was was going to allow us to do things less. And then the final one was seeking.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

And so this is this idea of staying curious really and and seeking diverse perspectives and and recognizing what that gives you when um you know these colliding perspectives we talk about when you have a challenge in front of you if you can seek the perspective of others it it often um opens so much up for you. I you know I think of where we're sitting right now and what the room looks like from where you sit versus what the room looks like from where I sit and I I just sort of love the idea of like if you just you know get up and move one seat to the left what perspectives are unlocked and you can do that just by talking to people. I don't have to kick you out of your seat. I can ask you what you know what is it that's front of mind for you from where you sit.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

Yeah it's getting curious right like we always hear leaders worried about what they should say to their their employees or you know how am I supposed to have this conversation and it's just a question just ask just start getting curious and I think it surprises leaders how much it unlocks actually just talking to a leader this morning and um they had the chance to sit down on some projects with a new team member and I think um it had been it had been hard. It seemed like it had been hard at first and and so she approached it with curiosity and she was so excited by what it unlocked. It was like I just didn't I I kept trying to push my way to do things when and suddenly I just took a step back and started asking for just asking question after question and it it changed the conversation entirely. And so I think it's as simple as just being curious with the questions. So ABCDs abundance both and cultivate dynamic and seek. I love it. I I feel like we need to I don't have to write down we have it recorded yeah and I can go back and review it there'll be a quiz in a couple months I'm scared we see you.

SPEAKER_02 39:52

Yeah I'll remember I'll remember um so I I feel like our conversation is completely zooming by today but I I don't Want to um have the opportun or I don't want to miss the opportunity to ask you both around your journey as well as you've been building this business? Because I I think that you've um you know both built remarkable careers up until this point and done some really um meaningful work. How has the shift been from kind of building um a career versus to really building an organization?

SPEAKER_00 40:21

It's been big.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

It's been hard, yeah. Uh and and and amazing. You know, I think um we are uh, and I'm speaking for you, but we are thankful, I think, every day that we have each other on the journey. Uh because I really can't imagine. I have so much respect for people who sort of do the solar printer journey because I feel that we we have days that are really hard and the other person supports us uh so

COVID, Tech, And Lost Space

SPEAKER_01 40:45

much. Um I our mindsets are are funny because we often will talk about where we're at with our mindsets in what we're we're looking at and when maybe scarcity is creeping in, or when you know, sort of that that drive for excellence that is um too too much.

SPEAKER_00 41:01

Yes. Some perfectionism.

SPEAKER_01 41:04

Some perfectionism tendencies that you know don't necessarily align with with the mindset. So I think um it's I'm very thankful for the journey. I'm thankful to not be doing it alone, and I think it's probably one of my highest growth times of my life.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

Yeah. Same, same here. I think it's allowed us to just step back and look at um look at leadership in a new way, which has been really cool. Um, because we're also going through all of this change ourselves when it comes to building a business, which has been fascinating. I think I think the one thing that's really um present for me is the so in the past four months, I'd say we have had to be very focused on what we're doing, and of course, the work we're doing with clients comes first. And then with with this other work with the PhD and of course juggling all the work with families, um, I think we've we've left some things aside that we used to do a lot more of when we had space, and one of them is social media. Like we used to post way more on social media and we don't anymore. And it's been fascinating because when we posted a lot on social media, people would always come to us and say, Oh, like it sounds like Pebble's doing great, it's so awesome. And and that we were still, we were, you know, things were going well, but we were still building our clients. And and now I would say we have lots of work, and uh, but we're not posting as much on social media, and a few people in the past couple weeks have been like, is everything okay? Is Pebble going doing okay? And so so interesting, I think. This like that's the one thing I've always noticed is um the difference in the story people tell themselves based on what they see on social media versus the reality of what is actually happening.

SPEAKER_02 42:42

Yeah, it's an interesting perspective. And and I feel like uh you know, I kind of make the joke sometimes that I feel like LinkedIn is a bunch of people just high-fiving each other. Um But it's uh it's a delicate balance, right? Because it can be a vortex and it can take up all of your energy and time.

SPEAKER_00 42:57

Yes. And you know you have to do it so that people at your front of mind for people they don't think you're f you're absolutely failing.

SPEAKER_02 43:05

Maybe you'll get the contract that's like, oh, we were thinking of you.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

Yes, exactly. Yeah. Um it's the pain contract.

SPEAKER_02 43:16

Um so so now that we're letting the world know that you're on actually on a phenomenal track at the moment. Um what does that track look like ahead? So if you're if you're projecting out for you know what is the next um you know, months, days, years look like for the work for both of you and the work you're doing at Pebble, um, you know, what does that next chapter look like for you both?

SPEAKER_01 43:35

So I mean we always say we have a folks in three areas, and so one of them is leadership development, and we had just the great opportunity to work with an organization developing their leaders over six, seven months. So it really allowed us to gain solid relationships with them, but also to see them embedding learning daily. So I think in in our in our ideal future state, we have a few of those programs running. I think it's I think it's great for the leaders, but it's also lovely for us because it keeps us really close to what leaders are experiencing and are feeling challenged with and and what they need. So I think that's one piece that that I I look forward to in the future.

SPEAKER_00 44:12

Um the other piece of work that we do is supporting organizations, especially growth organizations with their talent strategies. So these are companies who um who need to pay close attention to the people, and and all companies should be paying close attention to the people. Um, but this might be people who are in kind of different growth or change phases of their organization, and so they might be growing in a large number of staff. And so what worked with a small team might not necessarily translate in how the larger team is going to function. And so it's it's us really supporting these organizations in that in that journey of you know, how do you think about um the your culture? How do you think about the way your leadership is going to play out and who is each who are the people supporting the other people in the organization? And are people clear on their roles? And um, you know, how are you managing uh performance but in a way that doesn't feel so rigid? And so it's it's trying to introduce different ways of thinking about talent and people strategies

AI, Complexity, And Nonlinear Work

SPEAKER_00 45:10

with but organically in the organization in a way that fits. So we love um doing that work. We have uh a few folks that we're supporting right now, and so continuing to grow supports for other companies across different sectors would be cool. We already have a cool diversity of sectors, and then losses around teams, right?

SPEAKER_01 45:28

So we'll come um with a leader who's working with their team and wanting, you know, maybe they have some goals they're looking, you know, to accomplish, or they're a new leader. Often there's a trend, like there seems to usually be an inflection point when we're working with people and you know, really setting out with them on how they can create um like a sustained approach to the team. We you know, I I think so often people go, Oh, we'll go have a team building day and and then nothing changes. And so it's how do we then work with them to create this sort of space that moves into these days? The days are great, we're not saying get rid of the days, but but alongside the days, how do you create um that same energy throughout and sustain it so that it doesn't feel like oh here we go for our you know our day of fun, but actually this is part and parcel of how we work together as a team.

SPEAKER_00 46:16

Yeah, all of it is really just this idea of how are you approaching your people with intention and your leadership with intention.

SPEAKER_01 46:23

And often what you made rethink.

SPEAKER_00 46:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:26

I love it. I I feel like this conversation went by in like 35 seconds. Um if you had any kind of final thoughts, final things you wanted to share um with our listeners, is there anything you wanted to throw out there?

SPEAKER_01 46:40

Oh, I would I would encourage them to do one thing today, like maybe once this podcast finishes, just take five minutes and just ha have a minute, five minutes for themselves. And just no phone, no radio, just maybe step outside and and give themselves that what I think is a gift.

SPEAKER_00 46:58

That's amazing. I don't know if I would add anything. I think call up a friend for a coffee. Go for a connect.

SPEAKER_02 47:05

I love it. If someone wanted to get a hold of both of you, or one of you, um uh what's the best way to get to get in touch? Um don't give out your phone number or social insurance or anything like that.

SPEAKER_01 47:19

Yeah. Uh I mean our website is discoverpedal.com, so that's easy. And uh email is hello at uh discoverpedal.com.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

And you can find us on LinkedIn. We're not very active right now. You were at one you were at one point, but uh yeah, but we we do connect on LinkedIn as well there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:37

Amazing. Well, well, thank you so much to both of you for taking the time today. This was uh an absolute privilege to have you both. And um thank you for again for a great conversation.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

Thank you. It was so weird being in the chair just having you ask us questions because there's really wanted to ask all that. I wanted to ask you questions. I was like, I don't think we're supposed to ask you questions. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:56

Always feel free to put me on the hot seat.

SPEAKER_00 47:59

Okay, good to know.

SPEAKER_02 48:00

Amazing. Thank you again, and um, we'll talk to you soon.

SPEAKER_00 48:03

Thanks, Keith. Thanks, Keith.

SPEAKER_02 48:04

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