SPEAKER_00: 0:00

So we're tasking ourselves as people in whether you're in you're an entrepreneur, a founder, whether you're in an organization and a team, to start by asking what does success look like?

SPEAKER_02: 0:18

Welcome to another episode of Sell Me This Podcast. Today I am over the moon to have a guest that I've been wait waiting to kind of the countdown has been on to host you, Marg. Margur from Inception You, super grateful to have you.

SPEAKER_00: 0:31

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02: 0:32

We're gonna jump right into things.

SPEAKER_00: 0:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 0:34

Why don't you um give a quick intro? Who are you? Um where do you come from? How do we know each other?

SPEAKER_00: 0:40

Oh my, I'm trying to decide if I give the shtick answer or let's go for the real answer. The real answer. Um Margell, I'm a co-founder and the CEO of Inception U. And we're all about building game-changing talent that builds game-changing companies. And we uh uh my past life, I was, it feels like a past life. I came from the insurance industry, actually. And so when people ask if career change is possible, I'm like, yes, it is. And uh and so I can still see though, if I look back at the things that lit me up then, uh, and I have more and more of those things that light me up now in the work I'm doing.

SPEAKER_02: 1:15

I love it. I and and you and I met in a really interesting way, and I know that we um we'll give the show down the episode to Chris uh and the team um around Mesh, which is an incredible conference that came to Calgary um a couple years, but last year specifically, I know you were one of the speakers. You gave a fantastic talk on gardening and um xenoscaping, I believe. Um but I I know when you and I kind of first met right off the bat, we hit it off, and I feel like we should see the world in a pretty similar way. Um I'm gonna jump right in like with mesh, and I know we've talked a lot about it. Like what are some of the things that are special in Calgary that are happening around things like mesh and the connection and kind of the change in the ecosystem? Because I know we've talked a lot about this.

SPEAKER_00: 1:57

Yeah. Uh what I find is happening that's that I find quite interesting, and I think uh you and I have talked about this too, that I don't believe I'd have been an entrepreneur had I not come out to Calgary. I am an accidental entrepreneur. Um, and that's you know, that I'm a rule follower who has a rebellious streak. I'm like, don't tell me what to do. Um and and what I found in Calgary is that that uh that potential for creativity and for seeing something that needs to be done, that needs to be in the world, and then well, then of course I'll build a business around it is it's quite alive out here, and I find that really, really exciting. And then what I'm also seeing is a lot of the different, you know, if something's not working, then try something completely new. And whether that shows up as a product, as a piece of software, as a learning environment, that that is happening a lot. The community feel in Calgary I fund is really strong. And I find that it's well, I I come from Ontario originally, and I never said hi to strangers when I walk down the street back east. Like, no, and it's not because I was snobby about it, it's because I was too shy. So, you know, look at the ground and look really busy all the time. And I found out here that welcoming approach is and that welcoming nature really fosters a lot of stuff so that you do see that intersection of, and that's what I'm starting to see a lot of right now in this time of we could experience it as chaos, we could experience it as challenge, we can also experience it as opportunity. And what I'm finding is the builders are finding each other, and and it's the builders who aren't operating in the same space, and what can we build together? So that intersection of the arts and technology and health, and it's all coming together in really unique ways that I find the mindset that we have here helps to foster that when you find the right people.

SPEAKER_02: 3:56

I totally agree. And I I feel like Calgary, and I think I've said this before on the show, you know, has this scrappy nature sometimes from where we came from and some of the oil and gas routes, but it was, you know, a group of people that were just relentless and trying to solve very specific problems, whether it was how they brought product to market, whether how they got resources out of the ground, there was this kind of creativity that had to exist that I think still exists in the Calgary DNA. But I love what you mentioned too around the idea of builders. Um, and I think that that word of a builder is coming up more and more right now. Um what do you think it is about Calgary that seems to be creating this disproportionate amount of builders and problem solvers?

SPEAKER_00: 4:37

That's a great question, Keith. Like I it makes me think of um not that I watch Mr. Rogers, I watch Mr. Dress Up, Canadian content. Um Mr. Rogers always said find the helpers, and we like to say find the builders. You know, find the people who aren't talking about it, they're doing something about it. Um and I find that the builders who are most thoughtful and and thought-filled, so that they're looking at, well, if I do this, what are the effects on the other things are actually building the solutions we we have? Maybe it's that I don't know, maybe it's that whole, you know, pioneering history, maybe it's that um, you know, open spaces and what can be created when you've got a blank slate. Maybe it's it's a little bit of who's drawn out to uh a new place, right? Uh when I was when I first arrived here, um, so I came for a two-year adventure. And I even asked the insurance company, like, if I want to come back, I can come back, right? They're like, oh yeah. Well, that two-year adventure started in 1997. So, and I know listeners may not have been born by then, and that's okay. Um, there was something that was compelling that kept me here. And part of that was that welcoming nature, and then part of that was you know, just maybe it draws a lot of people like me that just want to try something new. I wanted to live somewhere else, I wanted to meet new people, I wanted to be by those mountains. Uh, I want like there were so many things that pulled me out here for adventure, for new. And maybe that's part of it too. Because when I first got here, when people would say, Oh, I'm born and raised in Calgary, they were a rarity. Um, it's a lot less of a rarity now, and yet that adventurous spirit seems to have stayed. It's not about the new people coming, it's about the people who are perhaps it's about the people who are out to try and build new things with a sense of adventure that's just kind of held us all here as well.

SPEAKER_02: 6:42

Have you always been that adventurous type? Like is that part of your DNA? Or you you mentioned the um, you know, accidental rule follower. I can't remember the ex exact phrasing you used, but um like how how did you flip that switch or kind of what pulled that out in you?

SPEAKER_00: 6:57

Hmm, that's a great question. Um when I was younger, I was so incredibly shy that my mom took me to the doctor because they were worried about how I would make it in kindergarten. And I was still quite shy for much of my life. Um and then I joke around that I killed shy Margot. Um I I definitely think being a drama, being in drama absolutely helped. So even though I say I was an adventurous, clearly I kind of was. If I was happy to jump up on a stage, um, I did I guess I picked and chose where I would do my adventure when I was younger until I had the confidence in my ability to to realize other things. And uh and that just I don't know, I see Keith, I see what I see that something else is possible. And this is the rule follower with rebellious streak. I see that something else is possible. I see that we can be better, more adaptive, more um thoughtful about others as well as about uh as well as about what we're trying to make happen in the world. And I see that, and I I used to initially try what I was supposed to do until I saw, yeah, and this is never gonna get us what's possible. And that's when I'd break things. Um, or that's when I'd say, oh, I'm gonna go and try another way. And it it's it's along those, once I really started building my confidence, my ability to see that something else was possible and that it actually could be effective, and then I could attract other people and get them excited about it, and then they'd help build it, then that's when I became even more adventurous after that, because then it's like, well then what else is possible?

SPEAKER_02: 8:46

So then have you always kind of been drawn to the building that story then? Because I feel like one of the things that I've always um really admired about you is your your ability to craft such an incredible narrative, right? And so if I if I think back to your mesh presentation, or if I think back to many of the conversations we've had around what you're building with Inception U, I think what becomes really clear is that story arc, right? And the ability to kind of bring someone, you know, really from a point of challenge right now, um, but s seeing clearly where the the story ends and kind of crafting and painting that that path there. Do you think that that that drama and that ability to kind of find ways around the rules has kind of built into that story narrative for you?

SPEAKER_00: 9:30

I'd say yeah. Um, and it's funny, so I I automatically what came to mind is improv. And yet at the same time, I only had the courage to try out for the improv team in my last year of high school. That was at like grade 13. I'm like, by the way, yeah, we had grade 13. Um and it was pretty awesome.

SPEAKER_02: 9:54

I think it's Eastern Canada.

SPEAKER_00: 9:55

It is an Eastern Canada thing that exists no more. Um but and it took me that long to have the confidence, and it was really my back was up against the wall. If I don't try this year, I don't have another shot at this. And then all the things that I gained from being able to say yes, that's really what improv is about. It's about saying yes.

SPEAKER_02: 10:14

Well, so improv, I again I'm a huge advocate, and I've I've never done it in any sort of formal capacity, but improv is something that I think is such a foundational skill, especially when you think about um, and I'm not saying this was you, but more kind of rigid um views of the world. Yeah. The idea of yes and where you can add, but you you can't actually just stop things in their tracks.

SPEAKER_01: 10:36

No.

SPEAKER_02: 10:36

And I think that's really indicative of the real world, right? You you know, the the people that just say thank you, but no, thank you, and kind of walk away, it's a challenging game to play, but if you can find a way to either add constraint, add rules, um, add context, it becomes an incredibly powerful tool.

SPEAKER_00: 10:54

Yeah. And one of the things too, so I did have during competition, um, one where I I put a line out and the person, one of the people on the team said no. Like actually said no, no. Flat out no and took it the direction that they wanted it to go.

SPEAKER_02: 11:13

Is that against the rules in improv?

SPEAKER_00: 11:16

It's not what you're coached to do. Um and what was interesting was like at first it it was quite jarring, and actually, even we could hear in the audience went, uh that's not what's supposed to happen. And yet grateful that it really forced the whole team, um and and including me, because it was it was an interaction between our two characters to build even more muscle to how do I actually find where you're wanting to go and join you in that. Would it also, if I think back to that, it reinforces that the preconceived thinking of how things will go limits what we can build and create. If we've already decided this can work, this can't, if we've already decided this is the direction we're going to go, we cannot respond to what's changing around us. And if we are going to learn anything right now, it is changing around us minute by minute practically. And we have to be able to respond, or you just kind of the scene dies.

SPEAKER_02: 12:18

And I feel like that's such a strong analogy into what's happening in the world right now. Um, and and even, you know, you and I have talked about this around what's happening with Inception U. And you know, you you're kind of going through a little bit of a rebirth as your organization as well. Um, I I think this you know it's probably a good time as any. Like, why don't we talk a little bit about the work that you do with Inception U and also maybe the the new part of the journey that you're on?

SPEAKER_00: 12:43

Yeah. So Inception U, I'll give a little bit of the backstory of how it came to be. So my co-founder and I, we we had each had um uh consulting practices where we did this kind of work. We did the work, and at the time it was called the soft skills. And I I laugh when they call them the soft skills, because if they're so soft, why are they so hard to learn? And they are learnable, these are not things that you have them or you don't, and we actually have to explicitly invest time and energy into building these. And so we each had different, quite different practices of work that we did, and we saw and we were having conversations with others who were in the same same kind of thing, and collectively we thought, well, this is a really neat packaging of what we can offer um to companies, to educational organizations, and so on. And so we put it out, and it was interesting. This is where for all the great things about Calgary, there is also some tried and true and thinking that's here as well, and that when things are working well, we got figured out until we don't, right? Until something changes around us. And so when we first put it out, um, what we would hear is, oh, sounds great. Good luck with that. Um or we would hear, well, who you know, who are you doing it with? Well, once you've worked with so many others, then you know, then come back and talk to us. And it's the thought is, well, we won't if we don't have a first client, then there won't be a second, third, fourth, fifth client for me to come back to. So we found that interesting. Um, and then where we where rubber hit the road, it was Rainforest Alberta, and be so grateful to the conversations that happened there in those um in those early years with it, that there was a desperate need for developers. We were in an oil and gas downturn. There was a lot of highly talented, highly qualified people who were highly motivated and there wasn't work. Okay, how do we help? Um, and we wanted to be part of helping people transition into an area of growth or and into an area that perhaps they would continue to grow with. Um and so it was conversations at Rainforest that some people were saying, Oh, we need full stack developers. And my um my co-founder was in the or heard the conversation and said, you know, what if we built a different kind of developer here? Which again is kind of some of the secret sauce we've got out in this part of the world right now. Um and what if it's not just about the code? What if we what if we equip people with an ability to design, to truly understand human nature and behavior, to um to do critical thinking as part of their software development. And then we were really fortunate to get some support for that. And then we got a uh I'm super grateful that we got a contract with the government of Alberta to help people who were unemployed and underemployed build those capacities so that we could diversify the economy and and so on and not always be looking from outside of here to get the talent that was needed. But the pivot is as we were watching and and I mean AI came in and um when ChatGPT launched, and I've said, you know, the goalpost kept moving. I'm like, actually, I think they put the goalpost in their backpack, their backpack, and they took them away. Like it was just near impossible to figure out what was going to be needed as people were figuring out, and whether it was a business leader, what it was an individual, how and where is AI going to fit, and what are the traditional approaches to learning and building skill that are going to serve for where it's going next. And what we we just kept paying attention to it. We've always been adaptive and responsive ourselves and as an organization and then the learning experiences we build. And we saw that uh the context we're in has fundamentally shifted, that we are in a paradigm shift on multiple fronts. This isn't one thing that, oh, once that's changed, then we'll be right. No, um, things are moving at a speed with technology and they're moving at a speed with mobility of people and knowledge and so on, that we had to respond really quickly. And one of the things that we saw was rather than continuing to put out um learning opportunities in a certain format, how do we actually help people equip themselves with the thought processes that often comes with experience when we don't have the time for people to gain the experience in the same way? But then technology becomes an opportunity and an enhancer, but not a replacer. So we commissioned a study to actually understand instead of like we've got a hypothesis about what's needed, and we see it's the meta skills. Meta skills being those skills that transcend time, industry, change, technology, they're the things that uh help us change the game. Okay, well, we've got this hypothesis that's actually what's needed. Are we right? So we commissioned a study and we said, let's see. Because if we're off base, we're going to course correct. And if we're on track, then how do we put that knowledge and that data out even more? And what we found is that's not only what's needed, it's what people are asking for. And it's not necessarily what they're getting. So that's now helped us to really put ourselves out as that meta skills company.

SPEAKER_02: 18:20

And so I really want to unpack this idea of the meta skills, because I think it's a super important concept in the world that we're in, but also in the world that we're heading into.

SPEAKER_01: 18:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 18:30

And so so how would you define like a a meta skill if you if you were to um tell Zach right now, who's you know recording, um what is what is a meta skill and and and how do I know what one is?

SPEAKER_00: 18:43

So a meta skill, if we think of meta being that it's overarching.

SPEAKER_02: 18:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 18:47

So these are skills that are kind of like the connective tissue between the more tangible, perhaps technical, and I don't mean technological, specific skills. Um and so meta skills are the things that help us make sense of things. They are the things that help us break down into components and synthesize back into a whole. Um, they are things like, and we've we've identified seven. So they're critical, creative, systems, computational, and scientific thinking, collaboration, and then design. And when we say design, uh I mean design is how things look and the and design is actually how things function. So we're tasking ourselves as people in whether you're in you're an entrepreneur, a founder, whether you're in an organization, in a team, to start by asking what does success look like? You know, humans are really good at putting our head down and go, go, go, go, go, and then we lift our head up and go, oops. And what we're saying is actually what does success look like? But then design is creating the conditions for success. When we see that design is um active and that it's about understanding human nature, which means understanding. ourselves, all these other meta skills can come into play as well. And it's about building with kind of life in mind, actually. Because if we build things based only on a specific area, we may be successful in that area, and yet we're destructive to other things, and we just cause more problems. So the meta skills help us understand that interconnection and help us build better.

SPEAKER_02: 20:27

And and so really if I'm interpreting it properly, though the meta skills aren't just something that's important to understand technology or how to build an organization. These are the life skills that really give you the framework and tools to ingest anything that life throws at you.

SPEAKER_00: 20:42

Yeah. Our viewpoint is understand anything and improve everything. Right. And so it is the fundamentally, these come down to the skills that equip you to learn how to learn. And when I hear people say, oh it's about you know I'm a lifelong learner or we're looking for lifelong learners. Okay, how have you equipped people to do that? Because it's no longer about the knowledge that you have. Any of us can grab any knowledge we want out of our back pocket because we're carrying computers around in our back pocket. Computers in our back pocket.

SPEAKER_02: 21:14

Well and that's that's the thing that I get curious about is you know these things I I don't think anyone can argue especially as you dive into the science and I I do want to unpack some more of the research that you did to really really validate what people are feeling around this. But why is it the case that that these aren't front and center? Like if these are the frameworks around how you learn today why aren't they more present in our training, in our educational institutions, in our um education systems? It seems like a no-brainer but but it's really not the case.

SPEAKER_00: 21:45

It's not um and and so some other work that's happening here the Learning City Collective and Dr. David Finch's work were looking at we we have and I'm going to borrow from him on this because I find it's quite concise how he talks about it. We are still operating with an industrial model to education. Which one of the ultimate aims of that model was to reduce if not eliminate mass illiteracy. And it did that to quite a large degree. It was also to get people to sit and to be told what to do and to and it's just not the world we're in anymore. And so we need to adapt and help people it's really we're not putting anything new out there. We're simply pulling stuff that you know thousands of years ago this was the kind of learning we did. We learned by building and doing we learned by observing we learned by critically assessing and when I hear people say you know it's kind of like the old person with a cane young kids face they don't know how to critically think we learned critical thinking. I'm like did we did we really no we had to read the books we had to read the books and we had to analyze and compare and contrast and all of that because there was no software for it. How many people of my age vintage and older um had Kohl's notes right like we've always looked for the shortcuts. The human brain is wired for convenience. And so we've got this model that was built on that the knowledge and the content was what mattered. And what we actually need to um provide is the opportunity for people to equip themselves to figure it out because it's changing too fast for learning to be static like that.

SPEAKER_02: 23:27

Well and I think you're starting to see some of the outputs of that as well in a really negative way where you know some people might be able to you know really clearly say okay well here's the Pythagorean theorem but if you go outside of that they they can't ingest anything new outside of regurgitation. And I think it's a real challenge when you talk about problem solving, when you talk about contextualizing some of these things if you talk about um the momentum that we're going to need as our next evolution of people it's a real challenge if you have people that can't think independently.

SPEAKER_00: 23:59

And and that's what we were hearing a lot from industry and part of the reason that we continued to do what we were doing as well was what we were hearing back is your people know how to get unstuck. Your people who've come through not our people people who have come through inception U don't sit and wait to be told what to do. And so we have to be compassionate with ourselves to start is we've all been conditioned this way. And now we're the world we're in and the work we're doing and the companies that many people are working for are demanding something different and yet haven't equipped people. And so it's not a flaw of the individual if you don't know how to do this. This isn't a character flaw. And it's also not necessarily you know there's no one to blame in any of this. My co-founder always says the system always wins. The system was designed for the outcomes and the outputs we're getting and what we're saying is those are not the outcomes and the outputs we need anymore. So we need to build a new system.

SPEAKER_02: 25:04

And and so it it sounds like you're starting to put in place the foundation for that new system which is saying you know that this the skills that we learned the ways that we learned um the things we were learning aren't the important things to focus on. Really it's these seven core meta skills that that we need to be doubling down on.

SPEAKER_00: 25:21

If people equip themselves with those you know with a library card you've got whatever education you need right like it it is available. And the internet when yeah we've got a computer in our pocket and it's also filled with a lot of garbage in there. We also need people to be able to equip themselves so that they are confident in their ability to sort out the garbage from the reality. And without that we are so vulnerable and people that like what are our mental health rates what are what are the anxiety levels what people don't know how necessarily to communicate effectively like it's all of these things because we fell in love with the tools and it's now the tools aren't running the show. We need to be leading the tools and the technology not the other way around and that's where the meta skills help us do that.

SPEAKER_02: 26:10

I I I love exactly what you said there and I even in the work that we do every day a lot of the conversations we have is that the technology is not the solve the knowledge is not the solve it's actually the easy part right now right the the incredible thing and we're very fortunate we live in a time where this is true most things once conceptualized can become real you know I can dream up an app idea and over the weekend I can build it with a replet or some sort of tool like that. I can um you know things that would require complex calculation or analysis you can run through an AI model and have an answer with minutes, days it just it's incredible what can actually happen. Yeah but the other side what what makes us an alien human is the part where you know we it can't be replicated but it's the part that no one focuses on either.

SPEAKER_00: 27:00

Yeah well we continue to to externalize things like well when I have this when I have that and you're equipped with what you need to then further equip yourself and deepen the and deepen and broaden these skills that you have. We it it's how humans are innately curious and it's time to really capture and harness and reinvigorate that cure innate curiosity we were all born with with a little dose of compassion that hey if if you haven't been doing that it's okay. We've come through a lot of stuff lately. And so how do we help uh create those opportunities and those conditions for people to really foster that innate curiosity and then realize something from it which is which are those enabling capacities like the meta skills.

SPEAKER_02: 27:50

Well and it's almost as I'm as you're kind of talking through it it's almost a retraining as well because if you think about the um opportunity to color outside the lines that was really frowned upon in in a lot of the systems that we grew up with. You know, I remember in and I keep using math analogies and I'm not sure why but you know in math you had to you had to show your work and if you do even if you used a different formula to arrive at the right answer you'd get Doc Marks. And if you don't follow the not just the answer that they want but the process they want you to follow you know a big red X on the page.

SPEAKER_01: 28:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 28:24

And I think that the ability to now say okay well the superpower is not following the process but rather being comfortable challenging the process is is a little bit of a um flip for everyone.

SPEAKER_00: 28:38

Well it goes to the yes and you were talking about earlier. So it's not that everything we have now it's not get rid of it. Which going back to the gardening ideology, it's a weed yank it out. Okay, if you haven't figured out what's going to go in there, you're gonna get some garbage growing. So it's not about completely dismissing everything that we've built on to get to here. It is about adding these in explicitly and then shape reshaping what the learning experience is for people to actually be able to try things things out. Like we when we look at all the evolutions of what we've learned over the course of running um the full stack developer program that's where we tested and iterated all of these learning principles through 14 cohorts and we have consistently in our lives we rewarded the right answer. So it was about knowing the stuff um you were told not to ask dumb questions um we punish failure you know like there are a bunch of things you you pass or fail a test right and and really what we need to be doing is really to foster that curiosity and the ability to realize something effective from it. We actually have to you know don't just tell people to fail fast but then they get punished if they fail. We have to create the conditions for people to realize the learning from it and that that's actually how we get to the build better, build differently and that we really encourage asking powerful questions which even comes to people learning how to ask a question. We we actually integrated that into our program as well and it seems so simple and people go oh that makes sense and yet they're not how we have conversations in our organizations. We tend to ask a lot of do you are you can you which are yes no questions which are often quite directive and humans are really smart. Our spidey sense say oh I know what you want to hear and I'm rewarded for giving the right answer.

SPEAKER_02: 30:42

Right. And I I never even thought about it that way but if you know with the bias towards being correct um you know question like and I can even think from our perspective sometimes the you know we have to ask a ton of questions in the work that we do but sometimes get asked okay well what are the best questions to ask and and uh I'd never even thought about it in the way that you're framing but the ability to ask questions and relearn some of those skills is is quite an interesting one.

SPEAKER_00: 31:10

I was so I've been so fortunate to to learn with and from some amazing people and one of the earliest folks I learned from um Aileen Gibb out in uh Canmore she said this isn't you know the even the method of coaching she said it's it's not a coaching conversation this is how conversations should ideally are happening in our organization so you're asking open questions you're pulling amazing things out from people which comes from a fundamental mindset of I don't have to be right and I may not have the best answer and collective our collective intelligence outperforms any one person's intelligence and so I'm going to get curious about your perspective. I'm going to be okay if you have a way better approach than me that that's okay. I'm going to be okay with being vulnerable and being able to say I don't know and we like to add I don't know yet. So asking questions of who, what, when, where, how, that generates conversation and dialogue rather than a yes-no answer um or someone even perhaps holding back and giving the answer they think you want to hear and missing the brilliance that could have actually helped us avoid another challenge. And so how we talk to each other um how we engage in conversation how we explore these things can make the difference between uncovering a whole new avenue perhaps sticking with the same thing.

SPEAKER_02: 32:36

So you released some research that backs a lot of this up so this is no longer you and I talking over a coffee and there's some you know strongly held beliefs and opinions um you know you you did I think what 3,000 people that were surveyed um you know across the globe not just in Canada you had some remarkable results that that I don't think just kind of proved this but like put the double exclamation point at the end and said hey like people are in need of this I know that we talked about the the project you were doing as you were kind of um launching it but were there any big surprises with the research or any big aha's that you weren't expecting?

SPEAKER_00: 33:15

There were two in particular that stood out. So we looked at Canada, the US, the UK and we had some again working with the researchers we had some hypotheses and and around mindset and what the different mindsets are in the countr in the different countries. And we've been hearing a ton of late especially about Canada and our productivity gap our productivity gap on and on and so we thought okay well um you know we had some predictions about who would be more cautious and who would stand out as um you know faster to move and all that kind of thing. One of the things that was the most surprising and it was the research who said this surprised them was there was a lot less difference in mindset between the countries than we expected.

SPEAKER_02: 33:58

Really? Yes. Because we keep like and you know I think you and I probably are in the same communities here there's this narrative right now that's you know Canada's behind in innovation Canada's behind in um GDP that we're we're playing it too safe and so you're saying that empirically what you're like hearing is that from a d like DNA mindset perspective very similar.

SPEAKER_00: 34:19

There was we share a lot more with these countries who are outperforming us than we realize. And um you know Canada's been playing small for a long time and at some point it starts to sound like excuses. Oh well we don't have the population oh well we don't have the money oh well we d it becomes a reason to remain cautious. Caution and skepticism is important. And and and uh I was at a conference last week where they they were challenging us like is this healthy caution or is this risk aversion? Because it's similar side like it's different sides of the same anything overdone can become maladaptive and less helpful. So we actually share a lot more mindset wise with the other two countries than we realized um or than we thought and that we predicted and are we overplaying a strength we have right you can be um you can throw caution to the wind and you're gonna waste a lot of money that way too because you make a lot of very costly mistakes. So there is a level of caution that's helpful. It's the overly cautious or the well we can't like that that I'm I predict is getting in our way that we're overplaying our hand a little bit. And yet what we saw was we share so many other things in common recognizing them being aware we've got those other things. Oh okay well now we're gonna put some conscious effort into that okay the other one that was surprising as well was um was in and around the Gen Z. Yes I'm saying Gen Z. It's very Canadian of you thank you very much is uh in and around how what percentage of them so we looked at let me back up a tiny bit we looked at five archetypes in and around um change and innovation readiness and how people respond to change new direction new things in their environment and we looked at um five archetypes which range from uh builder so people who readily see have new ideas and and are working to create and bring new things into the world um and then it goes to embracer happy to embrace change aren't necessarily going to be the ones who come up with the idea necessarily and they see an idea they see value in it and they'll get on board. You've got the drifters who will keep their head down you know what I've seen this I've seen this movie before I'm gonna keep my head down till this one actually goes ahead and it that could be in and around change fatigue right that so many changes and then we just go back to the way we always did it. So why am I going to put the time and energy and I've got a job I've got to get done once I see the changes established I'll get on board. You've got resistors who might even be full on suspicious of change right I don't necessarily understand it that I know the system that we've got and I do not have a sense I'm equipped to actually be able to get on board with the change to destroyers. And they are people who will actively and by the way people self-identified we didn't do some psychometric thing that we say well you're a builder you're a destroyer no they were given sentences and they self-identified yeah that's my response to change in new direction and so destroyers will indicate it that they will actively block or impede the change because from their perspective they have too much to lose in the current system the way it is. What came out of that was Gen Z, higher than anyone else 40% self-identify as destroyers. They do not have a sense that they are innovation ready or equipped for what's already here much less what continues to come.

SPEAKER_02: 38:08

Aaron Ross Powell So there's not too often that I'm I'm completely surprised by the output of research and I remember reading through your report last night and and really having this um you know deep thought around that Gen Z as the destroyers because there's there's so much narrative right now around you know the the Gen Z, they're the the native um technologists they've grown up with an iPhone in their hands they're the most equipped to use AI but but the research really clearly said um the the people they're the most likely in your organization to not just um resist change but outright work against it are the the Gen Z. What how like I I just have infinity questions around that specifically but like what um do you have an another layer of um kind of why behind that? Like why is that?

SPEAKER_00: 38:58

We didn't dig into that I mean that's the finding that came out and I'd love for us to be able to and it's probably a whole other research study to dig into it more. I've got some thoughts. I would love to hear your thoughts I want to hear yours first. What reading that what came to mind for you? What what curiosity got piqued?

SPEAKER_02: 39:18

I think that the thing that um and once again I'm surmising is that the Gen Z has kind of gotten the rough end of the straw that's which is a not a real expression but they've kind of got the the a raw deal um on a lot of things right whether it be housing whether it be the job market whether it be um just some of the way that society really has created some significant challenges and I think you have a very skeptical generation um and so I don't think that they're necessarily anti technology. I think that they're anti systems. And so I think that they know that this system is rigged to some degree against their long term prosperity or their long term success. And they're they're just pushing back against it. And they're they're saying you know, it could be We're gonna roll out AI or we're gonna um give hot lunches to everyone, and they're just saying I don't want to be part of it.

SPEAKER_01: 40:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 40:05

So that's that would be my best guess without um have any kind of research or data around it.

SPEAKER_00: 40:10

Yeah. Well, and it's similar similar thoughts came up for me as well. Um, you know, and I would say and again, skepticism is healthy. Skepticism is important. When I looked at that number, my concern was, are we close to having a generation slide into cynicism? And cynicism is about you know, it's often entrenching and nothing else is possible. And, you know, if I'm just gonna be stuck living in my parents' basement until I'm 35, well, you know, why would I participate in this? Um and we actually don't have the luxury to be cynical. We have too many existential level challenges that we're facing for us to become cynical and just throw our hands in the air and go, oh, well, whatever. And I'm not the data doesn't say that they're cynical. That's my concern is looking at numbers like that. Um and why would I prop up this system where you know you're going to see a benefit from it? What's the benefit for me? And I'm just going to have to continue to prop up this system because I need to be working in this system to provide the supports and the services for people who are now using those. And what is there for me? Oh, and by the way, services and so on are getting cut? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 41:23

Well, and I think it to some degree as well, it's to their own demise, right? A lot of, and and I think there's some really interesting research around it, a lot of the jobs that are being impacted by AI are the entry-level ones. And I I think that there was some really interesting jobs data that came over the states recently that I I think 14% there was a 14% reduction in entry-level jobs in the last quarter.

SPEAKER_00: 41:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_02: 41:45

Um, not not like year, in the last quarter alone, from AI displacement. And and the the numbers are continuing in that direction. And so I can also see a mentality that says, why am I going to prop up the um you know eventual demise of what I'm doing on this kind of entry-level build in my career role?

SPEAKER_00: 42:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 42:04

Um, and so I can definitely see that skepticism.

SPEAKER_00: 42:07

Yeah, and why why not? Like, so I'm supposed to go into how much debt and spend all of these years getting the things that you tell me that I need to have in order to get employment. And the only the only method of a livelihood that we have is exchange of money. And for most people, that's by having employment. Oh, so I need to go and get all these things, and then you're not going to create any entry-level or junior rules. Um, instead, you're going to use AI to do that. So now I'm in debt and I have no opportunity.

SPEAKER_02: 42:38

And and this is where I think that the mind shift, and I'm really curious in your perspective, starts to become really interesting. Because when you start focusing on the meta skills versus the knowledge that exist, um, there is a superpower that a lot of the Gen Zed folks have. Um, their ability to question, their ability to look at things in a completely different way, and and they see the world in a completely different lens than I would say even you or I might, which is a complete superpower. And if you take away the idea of knowledge as the gate, which no longer is like knowledge is a commodity now. So I can I can look up the answers to the test. I can, you know, I was uh talking to a plumbing company the other day, and we were talking about the idea that the code book now, you think about your Alberta plumbing codes, you can input that very easily into an agentic AI model and have um 100% accuracy for anything you need at all points in time within um 30 seconds.

SPEAKER_01: 43:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 43:40

So so is that training mechanism or the kind of tenure program around kind of one year one, year two, year three, year four as important as it was ten years ago. Um and and so I think that if you think about the skills that the folks bring to the party versus the knowledge they have, I think there's an opportunity, but it once again requires a rewiring of the fabric of how things are done today.

SPEAKER_00: 44:03

Aaron Ross Powell Well, and when we look at so the kinds of questions you're talking about as well, I mean, those are questions where there is a right or a wrong, right? There is and then you've got questions, and so those are very searchable. Google's your friend for that, right? Um then you've got questions that are a little more subjective. Like, what's your favorite flavor of ice cream?

SPEAKER_02: 44:23

It's clearly chocolate, 100%.

SPEAKER_00: 44:25

No, it's not. Like I can't tell you that, right? Like I'm not you know, pound sand, Margot. Like, of course chocolate's my favorite. Then we have questions that we need to answer where it's about the best answer. And that's where the meta skills come in. And when we have conditioned people to look for the right answer, then we are constantly looking back at what's come before. It's not about creating anything new, and it's the new ways that we need to create and equipping people to be able to figure out those new ways. And so it's when I'm looking at this younger generation, uh, you know, some other things by the way, that that came up, and this came across all generations, by the way, because one of the questions we asked was, um, we asked, what kind have you received training in the past 12 months? And 81% of people said yes. We asked what kind of training they got. They got health and safety, uh, generally speaking, health and safety, um, technical, job specific, and uh digital tools and systems. When we asked, what kind of training do you need in order to be successful? Collaboration, creativity, critical thinking. When we asked what kind of training and skills uh help you be interested, I'm not remembering the exact question, but keep you interested and motivated in your work. Collaboration, creativity, critical thinking. So there's a disconnect. And you have an entire generation that was wildly interrupted through COVID. And with that wild interruption, that ability to collaborate, don't collaboration is not a bunch of people working in the same space together. Collaboration is not a bunch of people working on something together. Collaboration is a skill that needs to be built to do it well. And our way of doing it and learning how to do it got completely interrupted. And it was even interrupted prior to COVID because we what I was seeing happening as my kids were going through school is well, we'll just give them the computer. You know, we'll just get we thought the tool was the thing. It's the thinking and the humanity of the person using the tool that makes the difference. And so we need to provide opportunities for people to build those skills. And so this is where, again, it becomes the yes and. I'm not saying let's throw away everything. And it's also not let's turn back the clock to a previous time. No, we're in the time we're in. We'll bring forward the amazing things that have gotten us to here, we'll recognize the things that are no longer helpful, and we'll recognize things that none of us got, and we're going to build those.

SPEAKER_02: 47:00

Well, and and I I love the optimism too, because I think that there's also the opportunity sometimes that everyone kind of leans into what could go wrong. And I I think the narrative that you're building that you're creating is the world's in our hands. Like the we can build the future, but we need some of these to we need a rewiring of some of these fundamental skills to be able to actually shape it in the way that we want and able to have the technology be something that we shape versus some it shaping us.

SPEAKER_01: 47:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 47:30

Um, and and I think it's such a powerful, powerful message. Um, you know, Margot, I think that we're gonna have to have an episode two because uh I we have zoomed by uh today. If if there was some final words that you you wanted to leave, if there was kind of one message um around um the the importance of the meta skills and even kind of how you're um building towards them. Is there anything you wanted to share with our listeners before we wrap up today?

SPEAKER_00: 47:55

Oh, that's a great question, Keith. If you're looking for different outcomes, you need to have different inputs. So create those conditions for your people to really bring with you and build with you what's possible.

SPEAKER_02: 48:12

I love it. If people want to get in touch with you, I I know that uh um you are a wealth of knowledge. Um you're incredibly passionate about a lot of this, but if people want to reach out to you or connect to you, what's the best way for them to do that?

SPEAKER_00: 48:26

Uh, best way would be start with info at inception you.com. Uh and in InceptionU.com also you can uh contact us through the contact form there, and we will make sure one of us gets in touch with you as quickly as possible.

SPEAKER_02: 48:40

I love it. Thank you so much for joining me today. This was an absolute blast of a conversation. And I can't wait for part two.

SPEAKER_00: 48:48

Me too. Thanks so much.

SPEAKER_02: 48:50

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